electrical wires

Quote "It's been my experience that a lot of the angst at the average club race comes from allegations, innuendo, gossip-mongering, and general bitching about cheaters - often by the cheaters."

I used to get mired in that crap, till I noticed I wasnt having any fun, when you race a car thats underpowered, outdated, and doomed by the very intent of the rules why sweat the petty stuff, go race and have fun and when you can afford a real race car, go national class. this will be my last season in ITA, my EP rx7 should be ready for the june race at laguna. and no K your not an a--hole, you just play one on the internet. LOL just kidding everyone's always too serious on the forums.

[Geo]

Originally posted by cherokee:
I am just happy to be racing...I don't care if I am first or last....still just as fun.

Then why cheat?

What a crock.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by grjones1:
And George I think it's pretty clear in a mumber of places that turbos are taboo - bad analogy. And I recognize your hyperbole.

Too bad you didn't get the point.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

George, forgive me but, do you actually race or do you just hang around to harrass newbies. you guys are going to make newcomers think maybe golf wasnt such a bad idea. just an opinion.

[Geo]

Originally posted by 7'sRracing:
George, forgive me but, do you actually race

Yeah I do. A legal car too. What a concept.

CHEATERS SUCK


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[dickita15]

wow this thread got nuts.
I was quite suprised that when i suggested a rule change to allow us to remove the stock harness i got such a negative responce. to me the point is not if i will get protested. i just want to have a neat, reliable race car. I have wired 3 ita rx7's and mine was the only one that still uses the old harness to run the car. the others all have the discusting harness in place but use 7 new wires to power everthing actually needed to run the car. i have no problem with new cars needing to be competitive but I see no reason to make it harder to run the "standards" My best result this year was a 7th, but that is not bad in $5,000 class.
am i missing something. is allowing a non stock harness a large advantage in a later model car with the computer system. I just don't see the slope as very slippery.
dick

[MK]

Wires missing/non stock = rolling slowly through the stop sign while making sure no one's coming.

Cheater cams = running through stop sign at 40mph on a blind corner.

Both are illegal, but let's get a grip. If you protest someone for a few missing wires, you are an a--hole.

But of course rolling through stops signs is the "gateway" infraction that leds to speeding through them.

[cherokee]

Geo...you mean to tell me that your car is 110% legal? Sorry but I doubt it. Given some time I am sure that we could find a gray area on your car that would go eather way on an any given day. If you feel that cutting a half pound of crusted up wires is a advantage on a car that is already 200lbs heavy...and if it makes you feel like a big man to protest a little silver Opel that is running at the back of the pack, more power to ya. Like has been said before you would most likely earn a not too flattering adjetive around the pits by others.

Like I said before I don't know if it is leagal or not and it seems like there are just opions here...if I got a YES OR NO I would know what to do..but this has gone on for two pages and it is still up in the air. I will talk to the reagon Tech Guy and see what he says....That should clear it all up...in the reagon anyway.

[Geo]

Originally posted by cherokee:
Geo...you mean to tell me that your car is 110% legal?

No, but it's 100% legal.

Originally posted by cherokee:
...and if it makes you feel like a big man to protest a little silver Opel that is running at the back of the pack, more power to ya.

Oh go cry somewhere else. I've never protested anyone and don't intend to (but can't categorically say I won't ever).

And as long as you want to make it personal now...

And take that passive-aggressive stuff elsewehere. If someone did protest you and you were found to be illegal, who would be the one in the wrong here? If you get caught, act like an adult and accept your fate instead of whining about someone pointing out the transgression. Whatever happened to honor?

Originally posted by cherokee:
Like has been said before you would most likely earn a not too flattering adjetive around the pits by others.

I find it sadly amusing that people get up in arms about protests, but don't about cheaters. It should be the other way around. Then again, I'm not one to protest anyway. Most cheats are relatively minor (which is all the more sad since it's just petty) and I personally figure I should just learn to be that much better a driver and/or that much better at car prep to overcome it. Always have felt that way. Cheating to get up front just wouldn't be rewarding for me.

Originally posted by cherokee:
Like I said before I don't know if it is leagal or not and it seems like there are just opions here...if I got a YES OR NO I would know what to do..but this has gone on for two pages and it is still up in the air. I will talk to the reagon Tech Guy and see what he says....That should clear it all up...in the reagon anyway.

I applaud you for that. As you said, it doesn't necessarily clear it up completely (since only the COA can make an official ruling) but at least you would be in compliance with what is accepted within your region.

FWIW, in my own personal opinion, if you have to create a rudimentary harness just to get on the track, do it. But keep working on building a legal harness and get it in the car as soon as you can. If I had some minor infraction on the car but it got me out on the track, I'd get out on the track (I'd also accept my fate if I got dinged for it). But, I'd also keep working to fix it as soon as I could.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Geo:
Too bad you didn't get the point.

Sorry to get back in this guys, but I can't let this one go by.


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited October 04, 2003).]

[grjones1]

Originally posted by grjones1:

Originally posted by Geo:
Too bad you didn't get the point.

Sorry to get back in this guys, but I can't let this one go by.
George, I got your point. But what you don't get is that if you can't write a rule without ambivalence, without contradiction, and without reasonable alternative interpretation, you can't be surprised that people will take advantage of your inability to communicate accurately. And if you are bending axles to gain camber and getting away with it because the manual doesn't give a rear camber setting, you are doing a little stretching of the interpretations yourself. Rid yourself of some of that intellectual hubris and concentrate on wiriting clear precise rules. We're no more hypocrits or idiots than you are, we look for driving and mechanical advantages so we can win. That's racing.
G. Robert Jones

[Geo]

Originally posted by grjones1:
George, I got your point. But what you don't get is that if you can't write a rule without ambivalence, without contradiction, and without reasonable alternative interpretation, you can't be surprised that people will take advantage of your inability to communicate accurately. Rid yourself of some of that intellectual hubris and concentrate on wiriting clear precise rules. We're not hypocrits or idiots, we look for driving and mechanical advantages so we can win. That's racing.

Ah, now on this point Robert, I couldn't agree more. To accuse me of intellectual hubris is way off the mark, at least certainly on the point you make above. Those who pay more attention here will back me up.

1) I not only agree, but have recently gone on record here as saying the rulebook is your friend, not your enemy. It tells you what you can do if you read it correctly.

2) I've also stated that intent has no bearing on interpretation of the rules. The written law is what counts and finding loopholes and open doors is indeed part of racing. I intend to take advantage of every loophole and open door than I can. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

3) Related to "2" above, I also mentioned that I've said several times in ITAC meetings that our job is to propose rules (we don't actually make the rules, that's the CB's job) where the written word supports our intent.

So, on this point we are in 100% agreement. However, there will always be people who create strained and tortured interpretations.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[grjones1]

So, on this point we are in 100% agreement. However, there will always be people who create strained and tortured interpretations.


[/B][/QUOTE]
And I repeat George, if you are bending axles, you are doing a little straining (no pun intended) yourself. ("Let he who is without sin ...")
GRJ



[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited October 04, 2003).]

[Geo]

Originally posted by grjones1:
And I repeat George, if you are bending axles, you are doing a little straining (no pun intended) yourself.

Sorry. Not at all. There is absolutely no spec for rear axle camber for the first gen RX-7. How can any amount of camber be illegal? It cannot. If the SCCA wants to change this, the CB will have to set a spec. That's black and white. Sorry. No spec is no spec.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

quote by george "Most cheats are relatively minor (which is all the more sad since it's just petty"

george, have you ever tried to wire a master into a stock rx7 harness and keep everything in factory spec working order, it impossible.
I spent two weeks trying to do that, then ripped it all out and rewired the car, that was not the intent of scca to chase people away with stupid requirements that arnt achievable to the average person, which is why they look the other way on matters like this, its only a small group of condecending people that give a hoot if your grille matches the contour of the fender, of which I take at face value, petty indeed. how in one breath can you say "thats not fair" in another say "no fairness is intended. C/A's or scrap the class, no C/A's in 05, ill convert my sons ITA's to EP as well. George, in case you hadnt noticed things in IT took a turn around 1992, then really changed with the E36, cars were relatively classed proportinatly before 92, by 2002 if you look at season end points there only 4-5 cars in each region that competed every race for points, why is that? the clinton's bare the brunt for most of the nations immoral trends but in IT the intent of the class really showed its ugly head, people felt the gloves were off by blatent misclassifications by the board, mostly in car weights. time dosnt change people, people change people. I hear talk about how the production classes are falling off, I believe its directly attributed to the failure of IT as most production drivers start out in the lower classes, if IT frustrates someone into quitting thats one future prod driver gone. Im not a cheater George, nor am I a quitter, I will move on to EP and enjoy going to the runoffs every year wishing all of you the best of luck.

[Geo]

Oh, and there isn't even a violation of the "intent" of the rule (rear gen I RX-7 camber) since there is no rule.

Now you could say if it doesn't say you can, you can't. Doesn't apply. No spec. None what so ever to declare the practice illegal.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[planet6racing]

GENTLEMEN!! PLEASE!!!

It's obvious that this has become very passionate. Let's all just take a step back, take a deep breath, then talk with some calm. We're all feeling the end of the season pressure, knowing that we aren't going to be racing for a little while (unless you live in the South, or California, or, well, you get the point). Let's save our remaining energy for the fight on track and enjoy our last races of the season.

Don't make me bring the CC.com smack talk over here...


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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Geo:
No spec is no spec.

Camber is not the issue, it's how you decambered. Where does it say you can bend the axle? - not a factory spec, "and if it does't say you can do it, you can't. Right? And please don't bother to explain how you contort the rule to make it work. You see George when you strain the rule it's ok, if someone else bends it, it's not ok. Clear enough?
GRJ
PS
Now that I think of it - I hope you guys are not staying within factory specs for camber. Now that would be ridiculous. So you see how whether or not the manual gives you a camber spec does't even enter the picture. The legal method to change camber would have been with shims or concentric bushings, not by bending the axle!


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited October 04, 2003).]

[itmanta]

"There is absolutely no spec for rear axle camber for the first gen RX-7"

There are many parts and dimensions on all vehicles that do not have "specs" available to the general public. This does NOT allow you to modify them as you please. Maybe I should chop my roof for better aero? Try to find a "spec" on the heighth of my roof. Just another example of inconsistent interpretation of the rules by the ITAC and the CB.

"Now you could say if it doesn't say you can, you can't. Doesn't apply. No spec. "

I would suggest that the first strongly supercedes the latter.

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Peter Linssen
ITB Opel Manta
Pacific NW Region

[Knestis]

Ooh! Well done, Peter!

K