electrical wires

[grjones1]

Harry,
Thanks for defending America. I guess you could say I dended her in Viet Nam.

Iwasn't talking to Don Stephens, I was talking to you.

The GCR definitions are not absolute. And if gauges are instruments, why does the rule say "gauges and instruments." Sounds circular to me. And why would VW call instruments horns? And Harry, if you have coated your motor, it sounds like you've been in the grey area all this time. I'm shocked.
GRJ

[Geo]

Originally posted by Knestis:
[Edit - even though he will probably throw his 2003 GCR at his monitor when I say it, I couldn't agree more with George on these points.]

Hehe. Hey Kirk, I know it may sometimes feel we are at odds. I think it's less so than you think. I probably agree with you much more philosophically than you imagine. Where I think we differ is in practical application to the issue at hand in the current environment. A good example of this is I 100% support your MT2 initiative.

It's fresh. It's very clearly written, and it's a good example of taking a philosophical position and turning it into excellent practical application. The only thing I disagree with is using valve area as part of the regs. Just use a inlet restrictor and be done with it. You'll eliminate pissing contests that would crop up over vale area.

As I've said from the start, I don't think IT2 stands a chance in hell within the current IT framework since it would require it's own rules subset within the ITCS and from a pratical standpoint, it just won't fly.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Harry:

Gentlmen,
May I join the fray by saying Harry and I have already had a few words and I'm beginning to think that Harry would be much happier in a courtroom than on a racetrack.[/B]
Your right I will be in Federal Court on the 8th & 9th next week and I WILL WIN (there's no doubt in my mind) the right for all the Disabled & Senior Citizens in American on Medicare and those that do not have medical insurance because they can not afford or it's not available where they work. The can't buy their medication due to the astronomical high prices in the US. These are people that must first pay the rent and grocery bill first and have to put the medications last. Some die early because they can not afford the medications. These people are far more important to me than racing. When I'm done I will have defeating the the domestic and foreign drug companies for overcharging the all Americans just because we are Americans We allow our Goverment agency the FDA to be corrupted by the drug companies. Roche a Swiss drug compamy earns 2 billion in profit off one drug every quarter. The pills are made in Puerto Rico and cost about .30 cents to manufacture but since Roche is protected for 17 years by the FDA they can charge what ever they want and they want and they get 17.20 a pill. I take of these 12 pills a day or I die. I'm on a crusade. I'll save millions of Americans millions of dollars.
I've already set the wheels in motion that will supply drugs free to residents in nursing homes as their money supply depleats. ONE BILL HAS PASSED IN THE HOUSE AND NOW HEADED TO THE SENATE. Even if the goverment wins I have it set upthatiwin either way.
I have taken the time to tell my Driver Don Stephens what you said about his driving skills.
[/B} Thank goodness most of the people I race with would be embarrassed to protest a missing radio wire.{/B}
I just stated the rule as it is written in the ITCS you on the other hand accused me of been some sort of protest nerd that couldn't drive therefore the only way I could win was in the tech shead. IN 38 YEARS I HAVE PROTESTED THE SAME PERSON TWICE PRIOR TO THE RACE LET HIM MAKE THE CORRECTIONS THEN I ASK THE STEWARDS NOT TO PENTALIZE HIS GRID POSITION STARTED BEHIND HIM ON THE GRID IN THE RACE I PASSED HIM TWICE ONCE THE LEFT then let I him pass me back AND THE ONCE ON THE RIGHT ON THE SAME LAP THEN JUST DROVE AWAY. Me and Don call that driving circles around the Smart___. Rodbert the car was A Fiesta. I know you know DJ and the last time I race against that car a Topeka John had a ITE Camaro push the Fiesta down the front and back straights to out qualify us. We still beat them on Saturday and that was the cars first race. On Sunday John brought in ringer named Duane to see if he could beat us but that didnt work either. I bought & keep a orange Fiesta and I know every part that's suppose to be on the car as well as the weights of all the parts.
We need to move this back to the Fiesta post cause I'm going to make you eat crow next. I'm going to make an ass out you for what you said there.

{/B} But, let me shorten this by saying you all have missed one statement in the ITCS that allows Harry to remove most of the junk he has left in his car: 9.c. "Gauges and instruments may be added, replaced or removed." The operative term here is "instruments," which can be construed to mean a variety of items, such as light switches and turn signals; e.g., the VW factory manual lists horns as instruments. Now I know that I'll be thrown into the gray area people, but that's what makes racing so much fun: the gray area.[/B]

The GCR definiion for Instruments is: An indicator or readout which when active, contains infomation about some aspect of car operation for driver reference.
Sounds like a gauge not a horn to me.


[/B] People like Harry will build their cars under a cloud of paranoia and run 10 seconds behind the rest of the field and then run off to see what item they can protest. And every once in a while they will win a protest and in some way glean satisfaction from that practice, when most of us just want to be competitive within the rules as they make sense. When they don't make sense, like leaving old wires dangling around, we ignore them. And when they leave an opening for individual interpretation we take advantage of them until someone forces a clarification, like with the interior/exterior coating debacle.[/B]
Damn I hate to be so humble. In my entire racing career I've had one 2nd place finish one third at the '91 IT Festival Topeka and I could have sent the winner home but instead I let him borrow suspension parts so he could race (it was a Rebello prepared 510 from CA) the other got away with useing a FF head (RIP Ken Kimball) and I let it slide. It will never slide again. If you don't have a federal head on your car you had better stay home cause I'm caring the correct head inspected an certified to be the only legal head for a Fiesta. There is no other legal head. You also called me a lair when I told you a Volvo had be declared illeagal for having to small of valves. The driver didn't know they where to small but Chris Albin won the ARRC in ITB in '95 because they were too small. I can email you the race report.
All the balance of my races were FIRST place except two DNF both involved being hit by another car. My last trip to Hallett running backwards was @ 135.32 that was the ARRC gear and on used up 185-60 Toyo's.
I'm having to replace all the coated partsof my engine because I'm the person that used and advertised using coating since '97. The Club Tech department came to me to provide them with the data so they could reword the rules to slam the door on internal coatings.
Last week you quote P. on page ITCS-11 All engine components not otherwise listed in theses rules shall meet factory specification for stock parts as a way to justify using a Formula Ford head on your Fiesta. The problem is that heads are listed parts P. deals with parts not listed.
Please carefully read the rules.
I'm trying to tell you now rather than later that my car will be a legal car and yours will have to be also.
Coating were legal when I used them last.
Please read the GCR.
Harry


[/B][/QUOTE]
Harry, Thanks for defending America. I guess you could say I did that in Viet Nam.

I wasn't talking to Don Stephens, I was talking to you.

GCR definitions are not absoliute. And if gauges are instruments, why does the rule say "gauges and instruments"? Sounds circular to me. And why would VW list horns under instruments if your definition were the only one?

And Harry, if you've been using interior coatings, sounds like you've been in the grey area all this time. I'm shocked.
G. Robert Jones

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Harry:

Gentlmen,
May I join the fray by saying Harry and I have already had a few words and I'm beginning to think that Harry would be much happier in a courtroom than on a racetrack.[/B]
Your right I will be in Federal Court on the 8th & 9th next week and I WILL WIN (there's no doubt in my mind) the right for all the Disabled & Senior Citizens in American on Medicare and those that do not have medical insurance because they can not afford or it's not available where they work. The can't buy their medication due to the astronomical high prices in the US. These are people that must first pay the rent and grocery bill first and have to put the medications last. Some die early because they can not afford the medications. These people are far more important to me than racing. When I'm done I will have defeating the the domestic and foreign drug companies for overcharging the all Americans just because we are Americans We allow our Goverment agency the FDA to be corrupted by the drug companies. Roche a Swiss drug compamy earns 2 billion in profit off one drug every quarter. The pills are made in Puerto Rico and cost about .30 cents to manufacture but since Roche is protected for 17 years by the FDA they can charge what ever they want and they want and they get 17.20 a pill. I take of these 12 pills a day or I die. I'm on a crusade. I'll save millions of Americans millions of dollars.
I've already set the wheels in motion that will supply drugs free to residents in nursing homes as their money supply depleats. ONE BILL HAS PASSED IN THE HOUSE AND NOW HEADED TO THE SENATE. Even if the goverment wins I have it set upthatiwin either way.
I have taken the time to tell my Driver Don Stephens what you said about his driving skills.
[/B} Thank goodness most of the people I race with would be embarrassed to protest a missing radio wire.{/B}
I just stated the rule as it is written in the ITCS you on the other hand accused me of been some sort of protest nerd that couldn't drive therefore the only way I could win was in the tech shead. IN 38 YEARS I HAVE PROTESTED THE SAME PERSON TWICE PRIOR TO THE RACE LET HIM MAKE THE CORRECTIONS THEN I ASK THE STEWARDS NOT TO PENTALIZE HIS GRID POSITION STARTED BEHIND HIM ON THE GRID IN THE RACE I PASSED HIM TWICE ONCE THE LEFT then let I him pass me back AND THE ONCE ON THE RIGHT ON THE SAME LAP THEN JUST DROVE AWAY. Me and Don call that driving circles around the Smart___. Rodbert the car was A Fiesta. I know you know DJ and the last time I race against that car a Topeka John had a ITE Camaro push the Fiesta down the front and back straights to out qualify us. We still beat them on Saturday and that was the cars first race. On Sunday John brought in ringer named Duane to see if he could beat us but that didnt work either. I bought & keep a orange Fiesta and I know every part that's suppose to be on the car as well as the weights of all the parts.
We need to move this back to the Fiesta post cause I'm going to make you eat crow next. I'm going to make an ass out you for what you said there.

{/B} But, let me shorten this by saying you all have missed one statement in the ITCS that allows Harry to remove most of the junk he has left in his car: 9.c. "Gauges and instruments may be added, replaced or removed." The operative term here is "instruments," which can be construed to mean a variety of items, such as light switches and turn signals; e.g., the VW factory manual lists horns as instruments. Now I know that I'll be thrown into the gray area people, but that's what makes racing so much fun: the gray area.[/B]

The GCR definiion for Instruments is: An indicator or readout which when active, contains infomation about some aspect of car operation for driver reference.
Sounds like a gauge not a horn to me.


[/B] People like Harry will build their cars under a cloud of paranoia and run 10 seconds behind the rest of the field and then run off to see what item they can protest. And every once in a while they will win a protest and in some way glean satisfaction from that practice, when most of us just want to be competitive within the rules as they make sense. When they don't make sense, like leaving old wires dangling around, we ignore them. And when they leave an opening for individual interpretation we take advantage of them until someone forces a clarification, like with the interior/exterior coating debacle.[/B]
Damn I hate to be so humble. In my entire racing career I've had one 2nd place finish one third at the '91 IT Festival Topeka and I could have sent the winner home but instead I let him borrow suspension parts so he could race (it was a Rebello prepared 510 from CA) the other got away with useing a FF head (RIP Ken Kimball) and I let it slide. It will never slide again. If you don't have a federal head on your car you had better stay home cause I'm caring the correct head inspected an certified to be the only legal head for a Fiesta. There is no other legal head. You also called me a lair when I told you a Volvo had be declared illeagal for having to small of valves. The driver didn't know they where to small but Chris Albin won the ARRC in ITB in '95 because they were too small. I can email you the race report.
All the balance of my races were FIRST place except two DNF both involved being hit by another car. My last trip to Hallett running backwards was @ 135.32 that was the ARRC gear and on used up 185-60 Toyo's.
I'm having to replace all the coated partsof my engine because I'm the person that used and advertised using coating since '97. The Club Tech department came to me to provide them with the data so they could reword the rules to slam the door on internal coatings.
Last week you quote P. on page ITCS-11 All engine components not otherwise listed in theses rules shall meet factory specification for stock parts as a way to justify using a Formula Ford head on your Fiesta. The problem is that heads are listed parts P. deals with parts not listed.
Please carefully read the rules.
I'm trying to tell you now rather than later that my car will be a legal car and yours will have to be also.
Coating were legal when I used them last.
Please read the GCR.
Harry


[/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks for defending America, Harry. I like to think that's what I did in Viet Nam.

I wasn't talking to Don Stephens, Harry, I was talking to you.

GCR definitions are not absolute. Why would the rules say "gauges and instruments" if they were the same? And how could VW list horns under instruments if your definition were the only one?

And I'm shocked Harry thet you would coat the interior of your motor without strict interpretation of the rules. You were in the grey area!
G. Robert Jones

[eh_tony!!!]

ROBERT!!!!!!!!!

STOP HITTING SUBMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Geo:
Oh my. I'm sorry, but this is strained. The GCR warns about strained definitions as well. I'd bet big money you are dead wrong. Oh, and VW does not set the definitions, the SCCA does.

By your thinking I can run a turbo. Let's see.... Exhaust is open after the cylinder head. So, I can install a turbo manifold and a turbo, right? Now, if I install the compressor side before the air flow metering device and source the air from either the stock location, or under the hood, I'm legal. Wow.

Gentlemen,
I vehemently apologize for the repeats. Sometimes my computer skills are lacking. But to the point: I respect your rebuttals and your judgement in many cases but I would ask please answer the responses. You still haven't answered if gauges and instruments are the same thing as defined, why does the ITCS say "gauges and instruments." And I would offer up in the case of the G grind cam that VW in fact does write the rules. You are ignoring the fact that the rules themselves allow the manufacturer's to write the rules: If the manufacureer provides a list of alternative parts for a certain model, BY THE RULES those parts are allowed: "Parts or assemblies which the manufacturer lists in factory service manuals or parts guides for a particular model which supercede or replace original parts or assemblies are permitted."

As far as GCR definitions: "Should any of the definitions contained in this glossary
appear to be in conflict with a specific rule, then the GCR or Spec Book will take precedence."

I'm sorry to continually quote the book but we either go by the letter of the law (as Harry would have it) or not. Come on now.

And George I think it's pretty clear in a mumber of places that turbos are taboo - bad analogy. And I recognize your hyperbole.
G. Robert Jones

[rage_racing]

I must say reading the same post oh what 20 freaking times was quite enlightening....not!!!!!

and as far as being the forum newb I am all that much more confused about it all!!!

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Harry:

Gentlmen,

Last week you quote P. on page ITCS-11 All engine components not otherwise listed in theses rules shall meet factory specification for stock parts as a way to justify using a Formula Ford head on your Fiesta. The problem is that heads are listed Harry


[/B][/QUOTE]
Where are heads "listed"?
GRJ

BLAH BLAH BLAH, poor guy asks a simple question on the race car site and you guys fill him full of BS, why dont you guys go have your pissing matches in private so we all dont have to read them, were here to talk about friggin race cars............

------------------
Daryl Brightwell
ITA RX7 #11
NORPAC
ITA RX7 #77
SOPAC

[cherokee]

SAY IT AGAIN BROTHER

What would happen to me if a protest like this was upheld?

C, or nameless one, I have been racing my ITA car in two different regions since march 02 with none of the stock wiring harness in the car at all, and no one has said a word about it. people need to get out more often if they think all these racers across the country give a hoot what you have unless your gaining a competitive advantage illegally. in other words MOST of us would just be glad you came out to play with us rather than nitpick your car, hell we'll even try to help you go faster if we can. dont let these morons give you any indication what scca racers are like.

edit to answer original question.

if some a--hole protested you because you were missing some of the stock wireing he would be labeled an a--hole and nobody in the pits would talk to him for a long while.
the officials in my region would tell you if your going to be finishing up high and racing with crybabies you (a) dont let them near your car, or ( at least make it look legal. if you were racing for first place in points everything is possible and you will get DQ'ed if some one pushes the matter, but, not likely for a non competitive gaining infraction such any wireing issue.

[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited October 03, 2003).]

[planet6racing]

7's racing is right. Get the car together, come out, and have fun. If you're in my area/division (Milwaukee Region, Central Division) and we are at the same track, stop by, have something to drink, and we can discuss the "fun" things we went through putting our cars together.

No matter how you build your car, someone is going to have read the rules different. Reasonable people may disagree. Accept it and move on.

As for what would happen in a protest, it would probably be the minimum penalty of times disallowed for the day and a note in you logbook to fix it. Of course, I've never been protested, so don't hold me to this...


------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[grjones1]

Originally posted by 7'sRracing:
BLAH BLAH BLAH, poor guy asks a simple question on the race car site and you guys fill him full of BS, why dont you guys go have your pissing matches in private so we all dont have to read them, were here to talk about friggin race cars............

Again I' m sorry, Daryl, for hitting SUBMIT too many times. The space is now returned (at least for my part) to those who want to talk about real racing.
G. Robert Jones

[planet6racing]

I think what Daryl was trying to say was:

We're all racers. We understand the sacrifices some have to make to get the car on track. We're happy to see you out there and having fun. If we have a problem with something, we'll come talk to you about it and resolve the situation amicably.

[itaintegra31]

I also agree with my buddy Daryl, if not having the stock wiring harness is going to make your car a lot faster then worry about getting protested, if it is not going to make the car faster then just go out and have fun. This thread has been getting on my nerves since it started, thanks Daryl for telling it how it is.

------------------
Ron Carroll
REC Motorsports Inc.
#35 ITA integra

[lateapex911]

Phew!

It's getting hot and long winded in here! Perhaps the Santa Anas are blowing........


Kirk has, as usual, provided clarity. If parts or conditions have 'worn' beyond their allowable clearances, they are protestable. In some cases it is conceivable that a performance gain could be realized. And that the contestant has created such a condition on purpose. Ridiculous as it may sound, what's to stop a competitor from intentionally shorting/burning whole and uneeded sections of wiring looms? (The RX-7 axle 'bend' concept comes to mind here)

I can't believe it has gone this far....

I'm heading out to the shop to double check my radio connectors!

But.......in a gazillion years I would't think about writing paper on a radio connector....but I do want people to make their best efforts, on a continuing basis, to run a well prepared legal car, and to show respect for the rule set. And that respect does include clever, open minded problem solving solutions that meet the letter of the law, but not always the intent. OK, Geo?

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited October 03, 2003).]

[Geo]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Ridiculous as it may sound, what's to stop a competitor from intentionally shorting/burning whole and uneeded sections of wiring looms? (The RX-7 axle 'bend' concept comes to mind here)

Hate to open an old wound, but that modification is 100% legal since there is absolutley no spec on rear camber of a gen I RX-7.

Originally posted by lateapex911:
I can't believe it has gone this far....

With this crowd?? Three margurita lunch today?

Originally posted by lateapex911:
But.......in a gazillion years I would't think about writing paper on a radio connector....

Amen.

Originally posted by lateapex911:
but I do want people to make their best efforts, on a continuing basis, to run a well prepared legal car, and to show respect for the rule set. And that respect does include clever, open minded problem solving solutions that meet the letter of the law, but not always the intent. OK, Geo?

Couldn't agree more Jake. Dispite some of what has been written here, I would love to see more peer pressure to field a legal car.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Knestis]

Originally posted by 7'sRracing:
...if some a--hole protested you because you were missing some of the stock wireing he would be labeled an a--hole and nobody in the pits would talk to him for a long while.
the officials in my region would tell you if your going to be finishing up high and racing with crybabies you (a) dont let them near your car, or ( at least make it look legal.

I am the biggest moral relativist that I know but this is a pretty sad state of affairs.

This conversation is NOT about wiring harnesses: It's about cheating. We all have to decide what we are comfortable with in our own behavior and in that of others. If any given driver exactly what he/she will give, in terms of running a legal car, then at least he/she has a defensible position.

However, the point at which someone with a illegal stuff raises a stink over a post-race beer about so-and-so's cheater car, he or she is officially, to SOME DEGREE, a hypocrit. It's been my experience that a lot of the angst at the average club race comes from allegations, innuendo, gossip-mongering, and general bitching about cheaters - often by the cheaters. People rationalize their illegalities in all kinds of ways, most often by invoking the fact that "everyone else is doing it."

I'm just not sure that i like this aspect of our game.

K (who seems to be running the risk of being an a--hole in addition to a NERD)

[cherokee]

I will do what I can to make the car legal...but as now I am running 4-7 place out of about 15-20 cars...I doubt that anyone would go after me...I did win one time in my class...it was my second race and I did not even know that I won. If someone wants to take it to the letter of the law I will just deal with it then...if a DQ is the worst that can happen...big deal, I am just happy to be racing...I don't care if I am first or last....still just as fun.