electrical wires

[cherokee]

I am afraid that I already know the answer to this but: What chassis electrical wires do I have to keep...The wireing in my 30yr old car is basically useless (unless starting fires counts) Can I go with a aftermarket generic wire kit ie: Painless or am looking at re-wireing the whole car. Mfg replacements are not available. Do I have to keep headlights,parking lights,horn,turn signals? In the book all I have found is "All chassis/structural/electrical repair if performed shall be in concurrence with factory procedures." By that my thinking is I have to manually re-run each wire.

thanks

[joeg]

The harness is supposed to be in there. Of course, you can rewire your essentials independent of the OEM harness and then just keep it for show.

[Speed Raycer]

I'm in the same boat Cherokee. The RX7 I just picked up doesn't have one single factory wire in it and now I have to add the harness' back in. Was looking through the GCR this morning for a clarification and couldn't find anything more than you.

Running new wiring will save you gobs of frustration and time. Plus you'll know what wires are what and where they all go.

Nowhere that I've found says that any factory electrical equipment (other than brake lights) have to function. On the other hand, it doesn't say they can be disabled either.


I assume by "Do I have to keep headlights,parking lights,horn,turn signals?" you mean the wiring, as all of the lights mentioned have to stay unless the GCR says you can remove them (on or below the bumper {but not in the bumper}, interior/map lights etc.)


To glom onto your topic, if a component (stereos and other accessories) is able to be removed, can the wiring for it be removed as well?

------------------
Scott
It's not what you build...
it's how you build it

<A HREF="http://www.pfmracing.com" TARGET=_blank>
www.pfmracing.com </A>

[This message has been edited by Speed Raycer (edited September 29, 2003).]

[cherokee]

The wiring harness forward of the firewall is gone...all of the insulation <sp> has cracked away (30yr old german wires) who would I write to inorder to get the final answer...if the original harness has to be there I will have to go FP or something with this car...no way am I leaving what is left of the harness in there...just too nasty...let alone it looks like crap.

[dickita15]

I belive you need to keep it under current rules but it does not need to work. I noticed some thing in fastrack this year about allowing A Sedan cars to take them out as many of the cars were recovered theft or fire cars. would anyone object to allowing this change in IT. It would not be much of a performance change in my old rx7 but is there any performance implication in FI cars.
dick

[Geo]

Originally posted by dickita15:
I belive you need to keep it under current rules but it does not need to work. I noticed some thing in fastrack this year about allowing A Sedan cars to take them out as many of the cars were recovered theft or fire cars. would anyone object to allowing this change in IT. It would not be much of a performance change in my old rx7 but is there any performance implication in FI cars.
dick

I'm thinking slippery slope. I have friends running the the SE-R Cup who have removed every unnecessary wire from their wiring harnesses. That entailed hours of figuring it all out and more hours of de-pinning each connector. They save a bunch of weight.

I'd to see this become the standard in IT, and if we allow it, you can bet it will become the standard.

[Speed Raycer]

I'd just cover the factory harness with that plastic loom and run yourself new wires.

What kind of car is it?

[Knestis]

When we built the Gr2 Golf rally car, we spread an entire wiring harness out on the floor of the shop, unwound the OEM tape and did exactly what was described - took out all of the wires we didn't need and added extras to the bundle where necessary.

The result was GREAT, in terms of reliability and serviceability but I doubt that we saved all that much weight, particularly on a car that regularly picks up 50# of filth over the course of a day.

You aren't going to like it but writing someone isn't going to change the final answer - it's right there in the GCR. There is no provision to remove stock wiring including - unless someone can point out a clause that I've missed - the wiring to parts that may be removed (e.g., electric sunroof or radio).

Kirk

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Geo:

I'd to see this become the standard in IT, and if we allow it, you can bet it will become the standard.

OK, Geo.....methinks you forgot a word there! I italicized (sp?) "I'd to", and I think you meant to say: "I'd hate to....", or did you mean "I'd like to...."??

I bet #1, and I agree with the ends that folks will go to, but I do think that allowing folks to go after theft recovery cars, etc., is an important angle.

In the end, I have a hard time imagining that you can pull out more than 20 lbs of wire, and most of it is low to start with, so for the guys who aren't at the sharp end of the grid, it's not a huge disadvantage to have it remain.

If asked I would go for it, but I am barely on that side of the fence....



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Geo]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
OK, Geo.....methinks you forgot a word there! I italicized (sp?) "I'd to", and I think you meant to say: "I'd hate to....", or did you mean "I'd like to...."??

Hate to. Hate to for sure.

Originally posted by lateapex911:
I bet #1, and I agree with the ends that folks will go to, but I do think that allowing folks to go after theft recovery cars, etc., is an important angle.

In the end, I have a hard time imagining that you can pull out more than 20 lbs of wire, and most of it is low to start with, so for the guys who aren't at the sharp end of the grid, it's not a huge disadvantage to have it remain.

If asked I would go for it, but I am barely on that side of the fence....

Nothing says folks can't go after theft recovery cars. Just have all the wires there. Certainly within reason, i.e. if the ends are cut off the stereo wires and someone protested, I'd be first in line to volunteer to take them out back behind the woodshed.

If you want that theft recovery car and the harness is cut to pieces, well, go source one out of a junkyard, or make a new one (complete).

Life is full of choices. Choose wisely.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[SilverHorseRacing]

Originally posted by Knestis:

The result was GREAT, in terms of reliability and serviceability but I doubt that we saved all that much weight, particularly on a car that regularly picks up 50# of filth over the course of a day.

You aren't going to like it but writing someone isn't going to change the final answer - it's right there in the GCR. There is no provision to remove stock wiring including - unless someone can point out a clause that I've missed - the wiring to parts that may be removed (e.g., electric sunroof or radio).

Kirk

I think you're spot on that the only real advantage is reliability, but.... the wiring issue has been hashed out, and it IS legal to remove the wiring to components that are allowed to be removed. I forget when it was protested, but the end result was the part in the rule going back to gauges, where you can remove / replace, and the question of where does the gauge end came into question. This is also part of the same idea that allows data ACQ systems, and the like to be put in. Just scanned the 03 book, and although it isn't spelled out, it allows complete removal of the stero and of the antenna. I doubt that their intent was to keep the antenna wire between the antenna and the stereo....Also, you have to look at the base models, which then allow removal of things like the power options, and their wiring, totally legal.

To answer the original question, you can re-wire, but are supposed to do it using the same layout, gauge, etc. as original. I've seen a ton of cars where they stuff stock wiring in the glove box / footwell, and run switch boxes and stuff as replacements under the guise of gauges and stuff. Fits the letter of the rule (stock wiring is there, and hasn't been repaired) and (gauges can be added). Enjoy

Of course, what do I know...left to some, the rulebook would be 750 pages thick, for every car on the spec pages...

------------------
-Marcello Canitano
www.SilverHorseRacing.com

[Harry]

My car is over 30 years old as well but I still must use the existing harness because it doesn't say I can remove it. It's back to the 1st rule "If doesn't say you can you can't. I'll add some details that will P off everyone. It's my nature to always be safe rather than sorry and because I play by the rules I don't do anything that's even questionable without checking with Jeremy in Club Racing and get a confirming email in writing to support any issue when ever possible.
On my car everything operates because it does not say anywhere it can be made not to operate. My cigerette lighter is still in the car and works. My ignition switch is located on the steering column not the dash so I must use it and just modify so the locking device doesn't work. The radio can be removed but nothing allows you to remove it's wiring. The ash tray must stay on my car and since it's located on thr dash panel. No where does it allow me to remove the heater dash controls & it's hoses and and balance of the heater system (my car never had factory air conditioning). The emissions allows me to remove everthing or have it all operational. So I removed the smog pumps & several switches under the hood alter the wiring including remove emission switches from the transmission and all the emission wiring. The headlights, park lights, turn signals all working, brake lights working, sidemarkers lights working, even the backup lights are working (in my case I must keep the wiring that activates the backup lights connected to the transmission. We can remove the dome light, it's wiring & door switches. No where does it say the horn or horns operation is allowed to cease so dispite have a removeable steering wheels the horn must work. Your low and high beam lighes connected & working. The wipers, wiper transmission, wiper washer tank, pump & hoses and squirt noozles shall be on the car all in it's original location & operational. I did check and wire loom is considered an alternate fastner in lieu of electrical tape. I'm sure there's more but the above is enough.
Not saying I agree just saying that's the way I interpret the rules or lack of rules.
Harry

[This message has been edited by Harry (edited September 30, 2003).]

[cherokee]

I am not trying to pull a fast one here...just trying to save my self a bunch of useless work. If it is ok to run a generic wire loom beside the original and run it to the lights and all that would be great. I just don't want to do it all if it is not ok. If I have to run one wire at a time....my winter is cut out for me. I would go the junkyard route but that is not an option...they where all gone years ago...an orphan remember.

[Knestis]

Way to go, Harry - I wish more people thought like that.

Where old cars are concerned, as harsh as it sounds, at some point it just becomes too costly to maintain them to the standards required by the rules. It isn't reasonable, given the march of time, to re-write the rules to assure that older and older cars will be allowed to run or be competitive.

Kirk

[itafiero]

Originally posted by cherokee:
I am afraid that I already know the answer to this but: What chassis electrical wires do I have to keep...The wireing in my 30yr old car is basically useless (unless starting fires counts) Can I go with a aftermarket generic wire kit ie: Painless or am looking at re-wireing the whole car. Mfg replacements are not available. Do I have to keep headlights,parking lights,horn,turn signals? In the book all I have found is "All chassis/structural/electrical repair if performed shall be in concurrence with factory procedures." By that my thinking is I have to manually re-run each wire.

thanks

Reading the GCRs under the ITCS section I believe what your asking to do is covered by 17.1.4 section D.8.h "All chassis/structural/electircal repair, if performed, shall be in concurrence with factory precedures, specifications, and dimensions. ..."

If your harness needs to be repaired because of age or damage the above rule seems to cover reasonable replacement meeting original specifications.

[Geo]

Originally posted by Knestis:
Where old cars are concerned, as harsh as it sounds, at some point it just becomes too costly to maintain them to the standards required by the rules. It isn't reasonable, given the march of time, to re-write the rules to assure that older and older cars will be allowed to run or be competitive.

I have to agree with Kirk here. I know that may disturb some - especially since I'm on the ITAC, but do we really want to become a vintage series like Production? Also, don't forget that my car (Porsche 944) is 19 years old already. I'm not for forcing out the older cars, but I personally don't believe in changing the rules to keep making it easier for the older cars to comply.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[cherokee]

I am not for changing the rules...however I see no reason why I cant go to a replacement loom from Painless...everything will still work just like factory...just not with the factory loom. I thaught the issue was everything working...I can make that happen one way or another...just buying the new loom and installing would be a lot better on many fronts. My ITA car now has everything in it....people come by and say "you got a lot of sh*t in there that you don't need"...I still have carpet. My point is I will follow the letter of the rules but they are not too clear on this point...does it realy matter if the little electrons flow down a factory harness or an aftermarket one....the job still gets done. I don't want to sound snooty but the rule should say the headlights should work...park lights should work who cares how the 12v gets there.

[Geo]

Originally posted by cherokee:
I am not for changing the rules...however I see no reason why I cant go to a replacement loom from Painless...

Is it virtually the same as OEM? If so, I don't see a problem with it. What is the difference?

If it's a direct replacement, I think it falls under "repairs in concurrence with factory procedures." But that's just IMHO.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[RSTPerformance]

First off I would vote yes on updating the rule to make it easier for older cars. we do not want to become like production like others said but.... I would say the more diversity and cars allowed will foster growth so allowing older cars to continue to compete legally is a good thing.

I also need to add that the components do not have to work they just need to be there. We are not obligated under any rules to make repairs, except for the body which falls under the appearance rules.

oh ya and to answer the original question. Even though I do not agree with it..... Yes all the wiring should be there. It is a competitive advantage not to put it back. Why you ask? If you didn't spend the time and money to fix the wiring then what did you spend that time and money on? Tires, suspension setup, a new engine? In the front of the ITCs it clearly says that no modifications that create a competitive advantage are allowed unless specified in the rules.

Stephen

[Harry]

Cherokee,Your right you already knew the answer and it's the original harness must remain but you can repair or replace it with all new wiring and use loom in lieu of tape. Painlss wiring is for kit car not race cars. If you can no longer get the parts then have your dealer simply sign an avidavit you hand write with the parts listed they can no longer supply. You write it so all they have to do is confirm the parts are NLA and have the parts manager sign it along with a couple of witnesses sign it then foward it to SCCA so you can get approval to use new connectors of an equal type. If you have a 30 year old car the harness is going to be pretty simple to make. I rebuilt a MGB harness in 2 days where rats had ate most of the covering away while it sat in a barn for 10 years. It's just another project you can learn from.

Scott, Go buy a used harness. I have three RX7 parts cars. It's no big task to find one. Then hook everthing up. The rule on the radios Is: "Radio recievers may be removed or replaced. Two-way radios are permitted" That's all it says so the wiring must stay.

George, Why wouldn't you just unplug the wiring from the radio in lieu of cutting it. It's much more dangerous to have a bunch of wires cut off than unpluged.
When IT began they drew a line in the sand that said 1968 and up. That's the way it should stay because I have no intention of being a party to eliminating any car built for IT by moving the date up. I hate that new car mentallity. Our racing is far from being a spectator racing series like Nascar, F1, etc. Putting newer cars on the track is not going to change that except in Pro Racing. Local dirt track racing gets more attention than the SCCA racing.
If GM's proposal to take the automobile out of the energy equation by using our most abundant element source for fuel and it's only emission is clean water that you could actually drink. Then Hydrogen will be our next fuel source. GM has not spent billions plus their now getting some money from Bush to continue their goal to have hydrogen power cars priced at the same level that cars cost today. All this in the next ten years. We had better hold on to anything that we can race old or new.
George, You don't belong on the ITAC if you feel exception here & there should be overlooked. You should stand to enforce the rules as written or make suggestions to the balance of the board the the rule should be rewritten. I highly reccomend that ITAC find out just who seems to have the final word on the Bomp Board about IT. Because what I here is that all they want to do is keep things the way HE wants it since it's his baby.
This sit back and wait and see over 4 to 5 years is BS. Changes need to happen now to bring about any parity in IT.
I could start in on you George and have you wanting to kill me behind the woodshead. I started racing IT when it first started. Never in my wildest dreams did I every think a 944 would be consider a low cost car. My car cost $1,990 new. No matter.
Someone on the Comp Board wants to try to keep IT low cost and at the same time does give a damn about the older cars. They've already went too far in some areas that they cannot police.
So from what I hear you say I don't think your in favor of competition adjustments. True or false? Where exact does George stand? We do know that he's ready to take my ass out behind the woodshead over the radio wires. HA HA HA (laughing)
Geroge you can remove 28 lbs. of non-essential wiring out of a new generation RX7.
Please know.... I know you are trying to do a very difficult task on the ITAC and I respect you for all your dedication and hard work. Keep up the fight.

I can still buy any of about 30 different new wiring harnesses for my car. It may not be the one for my year model or transmission type but it can be modified to work and with all new connectors.
Enough is enough.
Harry


[This message has been edited by Harry (edited October 01, 2003).]