electrical wires

[itafiero]

Originally posted by planet6racing:
Kirk:

<snip>

So, now what about speakers? And, what about the spare tire? I don't see those listed specifically, but I know those are gone on all the cars I have seen... (not trying to de-rail anything, but I seriously don't see any provision for removing the spare. It is clearly pointed out in SSS, but not in the ITCS that I can find).

It's listed in the ITCS section: 17.1.4 D.10.a.5.i - Spare wheels and tires may be removed.

As to the speakers since that was spelled out as a removable component in SSS. I suspect it will be clarified for IT at some future date. ;->

[Harry]

Spare wheels and tires may be removed. See i on page ITCS 20.
My single AM speaker remains in the center of the dash.
Harry

[Harry]

Originally posted by Geo:
Harry, I couldn't agree more.

Again, I don't know where or how you got these impressions, but I suspect it's from misreading some things and then creating a self fulfilling prophesy about me somehow. If you want to accuse me of something, you'll have to be more specific, because the things you've said are off base.

Your right, I am using you to debate with to get my views read since I'm for Compitition Adjustments and Parity in IT. You voiced enough anti-old cars ("Do we want to be like Production") that's why I I chose you plus your position on the ITAC.

Guys with FI are always for the new rules ECM rules period. They always did complained before that the carbed cars had an advantage to begin with which is crap. I could see allowing a unbias source to make aterations to eliminate the Rev limitaion of the ECM but now it's Haltech ect. ect.! I can get a factory EFI system from Japan to fit my car that was designed for my type & cc engine. Shoud a carburated car be allowed to upgrade to EFI system? Should I design and manufacture a spec two barrel 32-36 downdraft EFI adjustable system to replace the DGV's. It's do able. Can we allow 240Z's to use 280Z EFI with the same allowances that the other EFI cars now get. ITM offers SU EFI replacement for the SU' already. There's no adaptor in a EFI car. Would you opposed to port matching at the carb to carbuator manifold flange on DGV carbs. because we're having to run restictor plates now?? There's no restrictor in the modified EFI system.

The following statement you made really upset me, "What I am opposed to is rewriting rules just because it's harder for older cars to find parts. Sorry. For me that doesn't fly." Please explain why.
The rules have always allowed parts superceding ie. G cam in ITC Rabbits. Are you against this written rule in Section C that allows IT to Supercede? Yes or No?

I took surveys at several races and passed out letters to IT members to respond to the Competition Adjustment issue and it was 90% for 10% against in the paddock. I was total shock when I saw the results.


If GM gets the hydrogen car off and selling in 10 years as expected using the most abundant source of energy (hydrogen). We'll have cars that's only emission is water that's clean enough to drink. It takes the car right out of the fuel equation. They have built hydrogen powered generators to power a large building. GM is doing some amazing things with hydrogen.

Eventually down the road the enviromentist will get their way. All you have to do is look back 50 years and imagine the next 50 years. Our next agenda will be energy focused. Bush has already given GM more money.

I've had two rule changes made to the ITCS this year and have many more that I'm sure you'll see shortly. I'm sure they will amuse you when you see them.

I apoligize for targeting you and if I've offened you.

Regards,
Harry
Note I edited my last post. I was very tired when I posted it.





[This message has been edited by Harry (edited October 02, 2003).]

[Knestis]

Minor highjack...

Hydrogen is NOT an energy source, any more than is the electricity stored in the batteries of a Honda Insight. It is an energy storage and transportation technology since the manufacture of the hyrdogen to power an internal combution or fuel-cell system requries a bunch of electricity to make.

I am all for developing new technologies but there are some smoke-and-mirrors policy and R&D decisions being made out there. A gallon of methanol currently requires more than a gallon of petroleum fuel to produce, given current technologies.

We now return you to the rant already in progress...

K

[Geo]

Originally posted by Harry:
Your right, I am using you to debate with to get my views read since I'm for Compitition Adjustments and Parity in IT. You voiced enough anti-old cars ("Do we want to be like Production") that's why I I chose you plus your position on the ITAC.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Harry:
Guys with FI are always for the new rules ECM rules period. They always did complained before that the carbed cars had an advantage to begin with which is crap.

I also agree with you (surprise!). As I've stated in the past, I don't think we can police ECUs, but I'm all for giving carbed cars a one-time across-the-board weight break. I don't know what the right weight is, but I'd venture it's between 50-75 lbs. That's just a guess, so don't anyone hang me on that. I think the carbed guys got unintentionally screwed (not that I believe the CB intentionally screws anyone).

Originally posted by Harry:
I could see allowing a unbias source to make aterations to eliminate the Rev limitaion of the ECM but now it's Haltech ect. ect.!

I've also stated, both here and in private ITAC discussions, that IMHO the rule should be changed to require the original circuit board to remain in place in the stock location. This would prevent gutting and installing a stand-alone system, while still allowing chip replacement and in the case of somce cars, daughterboards, to remap the otherwise stock ECU. I believe this would bring the letter of the law in line with the intent here.

Originally posted by Harry:
Would you opposed to port matching at the carb to carbuator manifold flange on DGV carbs. because we're having to run restictor plates now?? There's no restrictor in the modified EFI system.

I have no opinion on this since I don't have enough knowledge of the particulare nuances of the issues in play.

Originally posted by Harry:
The following statement you made really upset me, "What I am opposed to is rewriting rules just because it's harder for older cars to find parts. Sorry. For me that doesn't fly." Please explain why.

Because the rules are the rules. As we make allowances for older cars to substitute alternate, non-stock parts (or official supercession parts), we hop on the slippery slope and start pissing contests. IMHO, if you can no longer source the required parts for your old IT car you are faced with a choice: find another class for your car to run in or find another car. Is this harsh? I guess that depends upon what side of the equation you fall on. I think it's the only way to keep it fair.

Originally posted by Harry:
The rules have always allowed parts superceding ie. G cam in ITC Rabbits. Are you against this written rule in Section C that allows IT to Supercede? Yes or No?

Again, I don't know the particular nuances here so it's hard for me to say. The manufacturer specifying superceding parts for a given car are certainly fair game. Substituting newer design parts that are not an official supercession is not IMHO. If that is what has occured, all I can say is that I did not vote yes for it and would not. The ITAC was faced with a similar request for cams for the Datsun 510 and my answer is/was a firm "no."

Originally posted by Harry:
I took surveys at several races and passed out letters to IT members to respond to the Competition Adjustment issue and it was 90% for 10% against in the paddock. I was total shock when I saw the results.

Well, we (the ITAC) were a bit shocked by some of the results. After some asking around by a number of members of the ITAC it became clear that exactly how the question was framed was important. It is very clear the bulk of the IT community does not want Production style comp adjustments. Something along the line of what we proposed seems to have rather strong support however.

Originally posted by Harry:
I apoligize for targeting you and if I've offened you.

Not at all Harry. As a member of the ITAC and a active member of this on-line community, I expect to be put on the spot, asked hard questions, have voodoo dolls made of me, etc. It comes with the job and I don't think anyone on the current ITAC feels any different.

I do wish more people would write to the CB rather than just complain here. Most requests will not fly, but well framed, well researched requests always get serious consideration, I assure you.

Lastly, while I was and am not offended, my biggest concern was being branded like so many other SCCA volunteers based upon misunderstanding and bad information.

Keep writing the CB.

------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[This message has been edited by Geo (edited October 02, 2003).]

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Geo:
[
I do wish more people would write to the CB rather than just complain here. Most requests will not fly, but well framed, well researched requests always get serious consideration, I assure you.

[/B]

Gentlmen,
May I join the fray by saying Harry and I have already had a few words and I'm beginning to think that Harry would be much happier in a courtroom than on a racetrack. Thank goodness most of the people I race with would be embarrassed to protest a missing radio wire. We really have more important things to worry about. But, let me shorten this by saying you all have missed one statement in the ITCS that allows Harry to remove most of the junk he has left in his car: 9.c. "Gauges and instruments may be added, replaced or removed." The operative term here is "instruments," which can be construed to mean a variety of items, such as light switches and turn signals; e.g., the VW factory manual lists horns as instruments. Now I know that I'll be thrown into the gray area people, but that's what makes racing so much fun: the gray area. People like Harry will build their cars under a cloud of paranoia and run 10 seconds behind the rest of the field and then run off to see what item they can protest. And every once in a while they will win a protest and in some way glean satisfaction from that practice, when most of us just want to be competitive within the rules as they make sense. When they don't make sense, like leaving old wires dangling around, we ignore them. And when they leave an opening for individual interpretation we take advantage of them until someone forces a clarification, like with the interior/exterior coating debacle. That's racing. And I'm not sure racing would be much fun if self-righteous mamby pambies take over declaring that their interpretation is the only one that makes any sense, especially when their interpretation is 180 out.

I guess while I'm at it I'll throw one out: Does it make sense to leave a glass panel (passenger side door), that must by the rule be rolled down, in a door that will likely be T-boned before the car finishs its racing career. (Yes Harry, my passenger doorwindow is still in place.) Seems to me in the name of safety we could remove that thing, lose some weight, and run more safely.
And has anyone realized how it would reduce the front-to-rear metal-to-metals if we could lose our bumpers. One would be a little more careful about punting another car if it meant he might puncture his radiator? And the cars would look neater and go faster.
Just some more muck for the raking.
G. Robert Jones

[pikup_andropov]

Quote:
Choose to "perform" the repairs? You will be out of compliance if you don't do them following factory-prescribed practice: Don't do the repairs? You are out of compliance under "Modifications shall not be made unless aughorized herein" since there is no clause in the ITCS that allows you to run burned-up wiring. Two different issues, two different rules
unquote:

Kirk,
All your rod bearing clearances, timing chain slack, valve lash, scratches in the windshield, etc. had all better be in factory clearance specs cause under your argument "wear" is not an allowable modification. C'mon, isn't that a stretch?? The rules have to allow for wear, damage, and repair. These are mechanical devices. If the rules do not allow for this, we better just go ahead and have a standing start, race, and finish so no-one gets any "illegal valve deposits" in the exhaust ports.
I for one, assume that the folks that wrote the rules had enough smarts to realize autos would break, get wrecked, and wear. Given that huge leap of faith, the insertion of the words "IF Performed" make repair of any wear,damage optional as long as it is not mandated by another rule (i.e. neat and clean for instance).

[Harry]

[/B][/QUOTE]
Gentlmen,
May I join the fray by saying Harry and I have already had a few words and I'm beginning to think that Harry would be much happier in a courtroom than on a racetrack.[/B]
Your right I will be in Federal Court on the 8th & 9th next week and I WILL WIN (there's no doubt in my mind) the right for all the Disabled & Senior Citizens in American on Medicare and those that do not have medical insurance because they can not afford or it's not available where they work. The can't buy their medication due to the astronomical high prices in the US. These are people that must first pay the rent and grocery bill first and have to put the medications last. Some die early because they can not afford the medications. These people are far more important to me than racing. When I'm done I will have defeating the the domestic and foreign drug companies for overcharging the all Americans just because we are Americans We allow our Goverment agency the FDA to be corrupted by the drug companies. Roche a Swiss drug compamy earns 2 billion in profit off one drug every quarter. The pills are made in Puerto Rico and cost about .30 cents to manufacture but since Roche is protected for 17 years by the FDA they can charge what ever they want and they want and they get 17.20 a pill. I take of these 12 pills a day or I die. I'm on a crusade. I'll save millions of Americans millions of dollars.
I've already set the wheels in motion that will supply drugs free to residents in nursing homes as their money supply depleats. ONE BILL HAS PASSED IN THE HOUSE AND NOW HEADED TO THE SENATE. Even if the goverment wins I have it set upthatiwin either way.
I have taken the time to tell my Driver Don Stephens what you said about his driving skills.
[/B} Thank goodness most of the people I race with would be embarrassed to protest a missing radio wire.{/B}
I just stated the rule as it is written in the ITCS you on the other hand accused me of been some sort of protest nerd that couldn't drive therefore the only way I could win was in the tech shead. IN 38 YEARS I HAVE PROTESTED THE SAME PERSON TWICE PRIOR TO THE RACE LET HIM MAKE THE CORRECTIONS THEN I ASK THE STEWARDS NOT TO PENTALIZE HIS GRID POSITION STARTED BEHIND HIM ON THE GRID IN THE RACE I PASSED HIM TWICE ONCE THE LEFT then let I him pass me back AND THE ONCE ON THE RIGHT ON THE SAME LAP THEN JUST DROVE AWAY. Me and Don call that driving circles around the Smart___. Rodbert the car was A Fiesta. I know you know DJ and the last time I race against that car a Topeka John had a ITE Camaro push the Fiesta down the front and back straights to out qualify us. We still beat them on Saturday and that was the cars first race. On Sunday John brought in ringer named Duane to see if he could beat us but that didnt work either. I bought & keep a orange Fiesta and I know every part that's suppose to be on the car as well as the weights of all the parts.
We need to move this back to the Fiesta post cause I'm going to make you eat crow next. I'm going to make an ass out you for what you said there.

{/B} But, let me shorten this by saying you all have missed one statement in the ITCS that allows Harry to remove most of the junk he has left in his car: 9.c. "Gauges and instruments may be added, replaced or removed." The operative term here is "instruments," which can be construed to mean a variety of items, such as light switches and turn signals; e.g., the VW factory manual lists horns as instruments. Now I know that I'll be thrown into the gray area people, but that's what makes racing so much fun: the gray area.[/B]

The GCR definiion for Instruments is: An indicator or readout which when active, contains infomation about some aspect of car operation for driver reference.
Sounds like a gauge not a horn to me.


[/B] People like Harry will build their cars under a cloud of paranoia and run 10 seconds behind the rest of the field and then run off to see what item they can protest. And every once in a while they will win a protest and in some way glean satisfaction from that practice, when most of us just want to be competitive within the rules as they make sense. When they don't make sense, like leaving old wires dangling around, we ignore them. And when they leave an opening for individual interpretation we take advantage of them until someone forces a clarification, like with the interior/exterior coating debacle.[/B]
Damn I hate to be so humble. In my entire racing career I've had one 2nd place finish one third at the '91 IT Festival Topeka and I could have sent the winner home but instead I let him borrow suspension parts so he could race (it was a Rebello prepared 510 from CA) the other got away with useing a FF head (RIP Ken Kimball) and I let it slide. It will never slide again. If you don't have a federal head on your car you had better stay home cause I'm caring the correct head inspected an certified to be the only legal head for a Fiesta. There is no other legal head. You also called me a lair when I told you a Volvo had be declared illeagal for having to small of valves. The driver didn't know they where to small but Chris Albin won the ARRC in ITB in '95 because they were too small. I can email you the race report.
All the balance of my races were FIRST place except two DNF both involved being hit by another car. My last trip to Hallett running backwards was @ 135.32 that was the ARRC gear and on used up 185-60 Toyo's.
I'm having to replace all the coated partsof my engine because I'm the person that used and advertised using coating since '97. The Club Tech department came to me to provide them with the data so they could reword the rules to slam the door on internal coatings.
Last week you quote P. on page ITCS-11 All engine components not otherwise listed in theses rules shall meet factory specification for stock parts as a way to justify using a Formula Ford head on your Fiesta. The problem is that heads are listed parts P. deals with parts not listed.
Please carefully read the rules.
I'm trying to tell you now rather than later that my car will be a legal car and yours will have to be also.
Coating were legal when I used them last.
Please read the GCR.
Harry

[Harry]

George,
When did the 510 cam thing come up?
Harry

[Geo]

Originally posted by Harry:
George,
When did the 510 cam thing come up?
Harry

It has not been made public yet. I debated mentioning it, but since it will likely be in Fastrack, I figure there shouldn't be a problem in mentioning it.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by grjones1:
But, let me shorten this by saying you all have missed one statement in the ITCS that allows Harry to remove most of the junk he has left in his car: 9.c. "Gauges and instruments may be added, replaced or removed." The operative term here is "instruments," which can be construed to mean a variety of items, such as light switches and turn signals; e.g., the VW factory manual lists horns as instruments.

I have to side with Harry on this one. The GCR is clear what is defined as an instrument. Nothing needs to be or should be construed.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Knestis]

Originally posted by pikup_andropov:
All your rod bearing clearances, timing chain slack, valve lash, scratches in the windshield, etc. had all better be in factory clearance specs cause under your argument "wear" is not an allowable modification. C'mon, isn't that a stretch?? ...

Nyet, Pikupovich. The rules do allow for wear, precisely as it is defined by the factory manuals - all of which I am confident profide all KINDS of min/max accepted tolerances for all KINDS of parts and systems.

A great current example is the issue of ECUs "throwing codes" in Touring. One isn't allowed to say, "Oh, gee - I guess there's something wrong with my engine" when a light comes on: Fix the "broken" sensor and make it legal.

K

[Edit - even though he will probably throw his 2003 GCR at his monitor when I say it, I couldn't agree more with George on these points.]

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited October 03, 2003).]

[cherokee]

Ok lets say I snip the wires out of the car...don't fix them someone protests me. Then what happens, will they suspend me? kick me out? make me pay a fine? I just don't know. Sorry if I am nieve<sp> about this but I never gave it much thought.
This is a race car forum lets keep our politics out of it please! But I started this mess so let me say:

(on soap box)
Harry and all who think like him, companys are in the business to make money. If you have a problem with that move to China. People like you are why I pay 25% in income taxes...not to mention taxing me when I save money and spend money...I have got to pay for everyone else to get everything they want. The middle class is beginning to wake up and say you are not getting any more of MY MONEY. If you want to help these people out sell your race car move into a one bedroom apartment and give all your money to whatever your cause of the week is, put your money where your mouth is....I will look for the classified.
(off soap box)

We all have our own opion on how our great country or the SCCA should be run...healthy banter like this is one of the RIGHTS that we have...lets hope we don't ever loose that, and we might.

Sorry if I got heated...goverment politics have no business in a race car Rules & Reg. forum...I don't mean to make anyone mad.

cherokee, you dont have to do this,

" Looks like I am going to clean up the fuse box and run new wire from there..."

the rules say if the fuse box is in the way of where you want the cage to go you can relocate it, dosnt say how far... I screwed mine into the front of my glove box door for easy access, play by the rules but try and use them to your advantage when you can, its called racing, wasnt it AJ Foyt that stepped out of his indy car with a nitrous bottle in his drivers suit, he was opening the bottle up and letting it flow into the air intake behind him, probly had him cracking up in the cockpit too. two gallon filler necks in donahues trans am camaros, ect ect ect. dont break them, use them. I had a EP driver walk up to me at laguna and ask me if my ITA RX7 was street ported, well its not, ports are bone stock but it sure sounds like its ported, has to do with prim/sec jet sizes and with the timing but thats all legal, then again my motors last four stinkin weekends but hey.



[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited October 03, 2003).]

double post

[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited October 03, 2003).]

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Harry:

goverment wins I have it set upthatiwin either way. [Q]

Thank you for defending America.

I have taken the time to tell my Driver Don Stephens what you said about his driving skills. [Q]

I wasn't talking to Don Stephens I was talking to you.

We need to move this back to the Fiesta post cause I'm going to make you eat crow next. I'm going to make an ass out you for what you said there. [Q]

I look forward to debating you there.

The GCR definiion for Instruments is: An indicator or readout which when active, contains infomation about some aspect of car operation for driver reference.
Sounds like a gauge not a horn to me. [Q]

The GCR definitions do not apply in all circumstances and if gauges are instruments, why does the rule say "gauges and instruments." Sounds circular to me, and if factory manuals appear to be sources by which some rules are made, what are we going to do about VW calling horns instruments?


I'm having to replace all the coated partsof my engine because I'm the person that used and advertised using coating since '97.
Coating were legal when I used them last.
Please read the GCR.[Q]
Harry

Why Harry, it sounds like you've been in the grey area of the rules all this time??! I'm shocked.
G. Robert Jones


[/B][/QUOTE]

[grjones1]

Even if the goverment wins I have it set upthatiwin either way.

Thanks for defending America. I did that in Viet Nam.
GRJ

I have taken the time to tell my Driver Don Stephens what you said about his driving skills.

I wasn'ttalking to DonI was talking to you.

[/B}
We need to move this back to the Fiesta post cause I'm going to make you eat crow next. I'm going to make an ass out you for what you said there.

Ilook forward to it. GRJ


The GCR definiion for Instruments is: An indicator or readout which when active, contains infomation about some aspect of car operation for driver reference.
Sounds like a gauge not a horn to me.

The GCR definitions are second to ITCS. And why would the rule read "gauges and instruments" if they were the same? And haow do we deal with VW calling horns instruments?
Factory manuals appear to be the guiding principle for most IT rules?
GRJ

Coating were legal when I used them last.
Please read the GCR.
Harry


[/B][/QUOTE]
Why Harry, it sounds like you've been in the grey area all thistime?!! I'm shocked.
GRJ

[grjones1]

Even if the goverment wins I have it set upthatiwin either way.

Thanks for defending America. I did that in Viet Nam.
GRJ

I have taken the time to tell my Driver Don Stephens what you said about his driving skills.

I wasn'ttalking to DonI was talking to you.

[/B}
We need to move this back to the Fiesta post cause I'm going to make you eat crow next. I'm going to make an ass out you for what you said there.

Ilook forward to it. GRJ


The GCR definiion for Instruments is: An indicator or readout which when active, contains infomation about some aspect of car operation for driver reference.
Sounds like a gauge not a horn to me.

The GCR definitions are second to ITCS. And why would the rule read "gauges and instruments" if they were the same? And haow do we deal with VW calling horns instruments?
Factory manuals appear to be the guiding principle for most IT rules?
GRJ

Coating were legal when I used them last.
Please read the GCR.
Harry


[/B][/QUOTE]
Why Harry, it sounds like you've been in the grey area all thistime?!! I'm shocked.
GRJ

[grjones1]

Originally posted by Harry:

Gentlmen,
May I join the fray by saying Harry and I have already had a few words and I'm beginning to think that Harry would be much happier in a courtroom than on a racetrack.[/B]
Your right I will be in Federal Court on the 8th & 9th next week and I WILL WIN (there's no doubt in my mind) the right for all the Disabled & Senior Citizens in American on Medicare and those that do not have medical insurance because they can not afford or it's not available where they work. The can't buy their medication due to the astronomical high prices in the US. These are people that must first pay the rent and grocery bill first and have to put the medications last. Some die early because they can not afford the medications. These people are far more important to me than racing. When I'm done I will have defeating the the domestic and foreign drug companies for overcharging the all Americans just because we are Americans We allow our Goverment agency the FDA to be corrupted by the drug companies. Roche a Swiss drug compamy earns 2 billion in profit off one drug every quarter. The pills are made in Puerto Rico and cost about .30 cents to manufacture but since Roche is protected for 17 years by the FDA they can charge what ever they want and they want and they get 17.20 a pill. I take of these 12 pills a day or I die. I'm on a crusade. I'll save millions of Americans millions of dollars.
I've already set the wheels in motion that will supply drugs free to residents in nursing homes as their money supply depleats. ONE BILL HAS PASSED IN THE HOUSE AND NOW HEADED TO THE SENATE. Even if the goverment wins I have it set upthatiwin either way.
I have taken the time to tell my Driver Don Stephens what you said about his driving skills.
[/B} Thank goodness most of the people I race with would be embarrassed to protest a missing radio wire.{/B}
I just stated the rule as it is written in the ITCS you on the other hand accused me of been some sort of protest nerd that couldn't drive therefore the only way I could win was in the tech shead. IN 38 YEARS I HAVE PROTESTED THE SAME PERSON TWICE PRIOR TO THE RACE LET HIM MAKE THE CORRECTIONS THEN I ASK THE STEWARDS NOT TO PENTALIZE HIS GRID POSITION STARTED BEHIND HIM ON THE GRID IN THE RACE I PASSED HIM TWICE ONCE THE LEFT then let I him pass me back AND THE ONCE ON THE RIGHT ON THE SAME LAP THEN JUST DROVE AWAY. Me and Don call that driving circles around the Smart___. Rodbert the car was A Fiesta. I know you know DJ and the last time I race against that car a Topeka John had a ITE Camaro push the Fiesta down the front and back straights to out qualify us. We still beat them on Saturday and that was the cars first race. On Sunday John brought in ringer named Duane to see if he could beat us but that didnt work either. I bought & keep a orange Fiesta and I know every part that's suppose to be on the car as well as the weights of all the parts.
We need to move this back to the Fiesta post cause I'm going to make you eat crow next. I'm going to make an ass out you for what you said there.

{/B} But, let me shorten this by saying you all have missed one statement in the ITCS that allows Harry to remove most of the junk he has left in his car: 9.c. "Gauges and instruments may be added, replaced or removed." The operative term here is "instruments," which can be construed to mean a variety of items, such as light switches and turn signals; e.g., the VW factory manual lists horns as instruments. Now I know that I'll be thrown into the gray area people, but that's what makes racing so much fun: the gray area.[/B]

The GCR definiion for Instruments is: An indicator or readout which when active, contains infomation about some aspect of car operation for driver reference.
Sounds like a gauge not a horn to me.


[/B] People like Harry will build their cars under a cloud of paranoia and run 10 seconds behind the rest of the field and then run off to see what item they can protest. And every once in a while they will win a protest and in some way glean satisfaction from that practice, when most of us just want to be competitive within the rules as they make sense. When they don't make sense, like leaving old wires dangling around, we ignore them. And when they leave an opening for individual interpretation we take advantage of them until someone forces a clarification, like with the interior/exterior coating debacle.[/B]
Damn I hate to be so humble. In my entire racing career I've had one 2nd place finish one third at the '91 IT Festival Topeka and I could have sent the winner home but instead I let him borrow suspension parts so he could race (it was a Rebello prepared 510 from CA) the other got away with useing a FF head (RIP Ken Kimball) and I let it slide. It will never slide again. If you don't have a federal head on your car you had better stay home cause I'm caring the correct head inspected an certified to be the only legal head for a Fiesta. There is no other legal head. You also called me a lair when I told you a Volvo had be declared illeagal for having to small of valves. The driver didn't know they where to small but Chris Albin won the ARRC in ITB in '95 because they were too small. I can email you the race report.
All the balance of my races were FIRST place except two DNF both involved being hit by another car. My last trip to Hallett running backwards was @ 135.32 that was the ARRC gear and on used up 185-60 Toyo's.
I'm having to replace all the coated partsof my engine because I'm the person that used and advertised using coating since '97. The Club Tech department came to me to provide them with the data so they could reword the rules to slam the door on internal coatings.
Last week you quote P. on page ITCS-11 All engine components not otherwise listed in theses rules shall meet factory specification for stock parts as a way to justify using a Formula Ford head on your Fiesta. The problem is that heads are listed parts P. deals with parts not listed.
Please carefully read the rules.
I'm trying to tell you now rather than later that my car will be a legal car and yours will have to be also.
Coating were legal when I used them last.
Please read the GCR.
Harry


[/B][/QUOTE]
Harry,
Thanks for defending America. I did in Viet Nam.
I wasn't talking to Don Stephens, Iwas talking to you.
The GCR definitions are secondary to use in the ITCS and if gauges are instruments, why does the rule say "gauges and instruments," and why does VW call horns instruments?

And Harr, if you've coated your motor interiorly sounds like you've been in the gray area all this time. I'm shocked.
GRJ

[Geo]

Originally posted by grjones1:
The GCR definitions do not apply in all circumstances and if gauges are instruments, why does the rule say "gauges and instruments." Sounds circular to me, and if factory manuals appear to be sources by which some rules are made, what are we going to do about VW calling horns instruments?

Oh my. I'm sorry, but this is strained. The GCR warns about strained definitions as well. I'd bet big money you are dead wrong. Oh, and VW does not set the definitions, the SCCA does.

By your thinking I can run a turbo. Let's see.... Exhaust is open after the cylinder head. So, I can install a turbo manifold and a turbo, right? Now, if I install the compressor side before the air flow metering device and source the air from either the stock location, or under the hood, I'm legal. Wow.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com