Welder Question

[backformore]

I am learning to weld with one of the goals being cage/car construction. I understand about cheaper/easier for someone else to do it, but I'm doing it for the experience and satisfaction(frustration?).

Here's the question: If I am going to purchase a welder to use for cages etc., what are the advantages of buying/learning TIG vs. MIG? Are the advantages of TIG worth the sizable increase in cost?

Thanks again for your input

[Speed Raycer]

If you're just learning to weld, go with a MIG, and please, please don't make your first project your cage (or your 20th project).

Practice Practice Practice

TIG is a whole different world as far as technique, patience and contortionism, and it's much easier to make the jump if you've got some welding experiance gained from the MIG.

As a new welder, TIG will only frustrate you. Buy the largest MIG that you can afford.

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Scott Rhea
It's not what you build...
it's how you build it

Izzy's Custom Cages

[JohnRW]

MIG = welding for morons. I fit this category.

TIG = Juggling chainsaws, while balancing on a high wire, while you're on fire. Naked. And drunk.

TIG yields a better joint, provided you use the right fill-rod, you know what you're doing, you control the heat correctly, and you know what you're doing. Oh...and you have to know what you're doing.

TIG equipment is also waaay more expensive than MIG. And you have to know what you're doing with it. Did I mention that ?

[Joe Harlan]

Did anyone mention that you need to know what you are doing with a tig? Tig joints must be tight and clean to start for a tig to make a good weld.

Go with the mig learn to get good penetration and be able to identify poor welds before you build your first cage. I would also recommend that even when you think you are getting good enough to try your first cage you have a known good welder work with you on it until you are positive.
Building your own stuff is very enjoyable and rewarding so I commend anyone that gives it a go. Be safe and remeber to purchase the fire extiguishers to go with the welder...

[racer-025]

I usually keep a bucket of water sitting in my mig cart just as a precaution. Its very quick to dose the flames and you dont get all that mess from the fire extinguisher.

Also when purchasing a welder, you need to make the decision on 220V versas 115V. 115 is cheaper and easily transportable to your buddy's place, but not as good as the 220. When purchasing a 115V unit, try to find a 100amp unit instead of those crappy 80amp ones. Keep in mind that the 100amp unit will require a 20A circuit breaker and 12/3ga wire to the recepticle if you are going to weld on "high" for any length of time.

[planet6racing]

I have a different suggestion, having just done some welding using a new process last night: Oxy-acetylene (note: I do not recommend this for your cage, just for learning). Using this, you will learn patience, weld puddle control, effect of distance and angle on weld quality, etc. Plus, it has the benefit of being relatively inexpensive. Puddle control is the key to both MIG and TIG (well, I think so in TIG. Haven't tried it, yet).

Plus, the Oxy-acetylene can serve as a great big flame wrench when you need it.

The other suggestion I have is the local technical college. Classes are typically fairly inexpensive and can help teach you a lot about welding.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[backformore]

THanks for the input! That is exactly the type of info I was looking for. My father in law has been welding since you rubbed two sticks together and he is a great resource. He gave me an OXY/ACETY set up a few months ago and I've been having a great time. I agree that it is a great way to learn the principles.

He has a 220V Mig welder that I've been using as well. I'm hoping I might be able to "borrow" it for a while to continue to improve my ability.

Depending on when I get around to a cage, I may just do the fabrication and spot weld and take it to a "real" welder to make it final.

Again, thanks for the input and I am happy to take any more that anyone can provide.

[joeg]

The consesus is a MIG.

Glad to see that.

The main advantage to that MIG will be welding your cage's feet to the floor/ rocker and the bodywork that will also eventually be in your future.

TIG will simply not tolerate dirt, paint and body sealant remnants you will have around when putting the feet in (or for sheet metal body work).

TIG welds look real nice IF done properly, but are reserved for the tube welds in the cage structure--at best.

As said above, go 220 and go MIG (as in Metal inert GAS--stay away from flux covered wire welders also sometimes advertised as "MIG" welders)

Cheers.

[chuck baader]

Northern tool has a Hobart (maid by Miller) for about 1150 (Handler 210-220v single phase). I used one to weld my first cage and it did a fine job. I would suggest taking a welding class at the local Junior/Trade school and learn the various types. Pay particular attention to weld penetration and how to read the heat lines on the tube after welding. After all, if you decide to do your own cage, your life could depend on your skill. All the above is excellent information.

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Chuck Baader
#36 ITA E30 BMW
Alabama Region Divisional Registrar

[backformore]

THanks for all the advice. I've been trying to find a welding course I could take locally, but all I can find are part of a curriculum or certification class. My problem is that I travel 4 days a week and all the classes are MWF or TTH.

If anyone knows of a good weekend or 1 night a week course in NE Atlanta (I'm in Gainesville) please let me know.

[Joe Harlan]

Find a local welding shop that sells Miller, They often have inhouse 1 day training classes for a small fee. I am sure other brands do the same.

[jhooten]

Some thing else to consider, it you thing you might build cages for drag racers the NHRA rules require the cage to be TIGed.

[backformore]

THe NH what what???

[ITA Racer]

I have a lincoln 175 mig. It is 220 volt and will do almost anything you will need on you racecar. Check the lincoln website. Thay offer a variety of elding classes even a few motorsports classes.

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95 ITA Neon

[chuck baader]

Check with what was Southern Tech in Marietta...division of Georgia Tech. At one time (while I was there in the 70's) they had an excellent welding class. Chuck

[Spinnetti]

The post below is right on..

I was a MIG welder professionally for a while, and on car stuff I had a little Miller 130 115v welder that I loved - I used the sh*t out of it and it never let me down. I could do some amazing stuff with it.

I finally sold it off and have a big Miller 230v Tig setup and love that even more, though I feel like I am starting all over again.

All that being said, MIG is great stuff - no shame in it compared to tig. MIG to TIG is like an artisan to an artist - both can to great things but TIG takes you that extra mile and will get in tiny places MIG has a hard time reaching.

I cringe at the idea of you doing your own cage though. I had mine done by a famous hot rod shop, though after they were done, I think I could have done better myself.. Not something to learn hard lessons on though - you only have one life.

Originally posted by Speed Raycer:
If you're just learning to weld, go with a MIG, and please, please don't make your first project your cage (or your 20th project).

Practice Practice Practice

TIG is a whole different world as far as technique, patience and contortionism, and it's much easier to make the jump if you've got some welding experiance gained from the MIG.

As a new welder, TIG will only frustrate you. Buy the largest MIG that you can afford.

[MarkL]

GO TO THE LOCAL COMMUNITY COLLEGE and enroll in a welding class, or find a continuing/adult education class (most likely through the same community college) and LEARN to weld by making burnt offerings that you aren't betting your life on.

If you are going to weld tubes, or anything else, make a bunch of practice pieces first, and cut them up to see if you are getting complete penetration. Clamp a bunch of these pieces in a vise, and beat the crap out of them with a BFH to see if they hold. Bend one in each direction. If they fall apart or crack, you need more practice.

By the way, learn to gas weld first, that's the way the school is going to teach you. You will learn to look for the puddle, and recognize what you need to see. After gas welding for a while, you will find that TIG welding is MUCH easier.

Once upon a time, gas welding was all that there was! Try to weld a pipeline on schedule 40 with a gas torch (the kind with two tips--one for preheat and one for welding). It separates the men from the boys. By the way, chrome-moly was invented for gas welded airplane applications. WWII warbirds and such. TIG and gas (OAW) welding are about the same in terms of pace.

Don't believe that a weld that doesn't look good is good enough to hold, or even that a good looking weld is good enough to hold.

[KevSC1]

And remember, just because someone is a certified welder, doesn't mean they're any good.

I'm a certified welder, and I'm not that good. While I may be *technically* "good enough" to build a cage, I sure as hell wouldn't build one for myself. I wouldn't even build one for someone I don't like.

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Kevin M. Keller
crew, '94 Saturn SC2 ITA CenDiv 2003 Champs
F&C, STL Region
http://www.saturnperformanceclub.com

[Fleetcare]

I have a Clarke Welder. Its 220v and MIG,
I'm actually making my SPU car entirely with it. As said above any idiot can do it. I watched amateurs like my dad try and his first weld was perfect! Maybe a gift or maybe you just cant screw up!

If your looking for a clarke try weldingdepot.com They are quite cheap and the factory is very helpful with technical issues and replacement parts which all seem to be covered under the warranty.

As for lincoln lets just say the pro's take Miller 3:1 over lincoln.

Personally I feel I made a mistake buying MIG and would like a Tig now but I feel I would loose too much money by trading up
Life sucks

~Jonathan

[chuck baader]

Johnathan, don't fret about wanting a TIG...I have both and rarely use the TIG because it is just too time comsuming to use. MIG gives you the flexibility to have the fit somewhat loose where TIG requires precise fit-up. Don't worry, be happy. Chuck