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Thread: Headers: ceramic coating? Wrapping?

  1. #21
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    Originally posted by Geo:
    I cannot imagine how they could be.
    Well, you initially stated it as a fact, but it seems to be an opinion. I'm just trying to provide a distinction between the two.

    Thermal coatings are allowed on headers and exhausts, because the GCR specifically says those are unrestricted.

    Thermal or anti-friction or thermal barrier or impregnated or anti-gravity coatings are specifically considered non-compliant when used on internal engine surfaces and the insides of intake manifolds. The GCR states this clearly. Why call out a list of specific parts where those coatings cannot be used, but not include other parts ? "You can't paint your front porch green" doesn't mean that I can't paint my back porch green.

    It's known that many stock calipers come painted. It's not known why they're painted. Is it for corrosion protection, or for heat transfer, or for both, as rust is a lousy conductor of heat ? We don't know, so it's difficult to make the argument that using a good heat radiation paint or coating 'performs a prohibited function', which some might cite as a counter-argument. It's not a 'tortured' interpretation, in that light.

    The real test is "What would the SOM's think, and then on appeal, what would a Nat'l Court think ?". Until someone can cite an example of a Nat'l Court finding, this is all just opinion.

    I probably have more 'appearances before the SOM' than you have 'race starts' (not sure whether that's good or bad...). My opinion is that I could convince an SOM Court that it's legal. I have no idea as to how it would fare at the appeal level, if it got there.

    But it's an interesting question.

  2. #22
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    Originally posted by JohnRW:
    Well, you initially stated it as a fact, but it seems to be an opinion. I'm just trying to provide a distinction between the two.
    I can fully appreciate that.

    Originally posted by JohnRW:
    Why call out a list of specific parts where those coatings cannot be used, but not include other parts ? "You can't paint your front porch green" doesn't mean that I can't paint my back porch green.
    Oh boy, I think that's dangerous ground. That's saying "if it doesn't say I can't I can." We all know that is not how the rule book works.

    Originally posted by JohnRW:
    The real test is "What would the SOM's think, and then on appeal, what would a Nat'l Court think ?". Until someone can cite an example of a Nat'l Court finding, this is all just opinion.
    Again, I couldn't agree more.

    Originally posted by JohnRW:
    I probably have more 'appearances before the SOM' than you have 'race starts' (not sure whether that's good or bad...).
    I'm sure that's true. We all know you're just a bad boy. Seriously, I am sure you are correct here.

    Originally posted by JohnRW:
    My opinion is that I could convince an SOM Court that it's legal. I have no idea as to how it would fare at the appeal level, if it got there.

    But it's an interesting question.
    No doubt. And the SOMs and COA are not always predictable.

    I'll go back to the fact that I cannot find anything in the CGR or ITCS that would allow for BBE coatings on brake calipers. You may convince a SOM or COA that it's paint and have them rule OK, but that still doesn't mean it's legal because the claim would be fraudulent. The Swain BBE coating looks like flat black paint (I had it on my turbo G20 intercooler) so it would be hard to tell what it really is.

    That said, I don't see anything allowing for painting calipers that are not painted from the factory.


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    George Roffe
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    92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
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  3. #23
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    Looking through the ITCS I reread the following.....

    "No interchange of parts between assemblies is permitted, and all parts of an assembly shall be as originally produced for that assembly (such parts may, however, be coated, painted, or plated).

    Based upon this statement, I must recant. If it says you can, you bloody well can.


    ------------------
    George Roffe
    Houston, TX
    84 944 ITS car under construction
    92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
    http://www.nissport.com

  4. #24
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    The problem isn't with the wrap trapping moisture. Without the surounding air available to disapate the heat from the exhaust, the header temp itself runs much higher. The oxygen in the atmosphere still comes in contact with the now hotter metal, and will greatly increase the rate of oxidation (deterioration) of the metal (same principle behind the cutting torch). I had a header go bad in one season from wrapping it.

  5. #25
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    That makes a whole lot more sense!!! I'm really interested now to see how my wrapped and coated header turns out, given that the coating seems to do a very good job of sealing against rust. Of course, to coat the inside and keep the head away from the header wall is still even better...

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    Vaughan Scott
    Detroit Region #280052
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  6. #26
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    Although not high tech, I have had nice results using hi-temp manifold paint, brush on type, to seal the metal against rust and then wrap it. Holds up well and makes a noticable difference in under hood temps. Cheap too, and, what I'll be doing on my Jensen header.

    ------------------
    Ron
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  7. #27
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    OK, I have two questions now...
    1. What is the address of the FC and FF forums?

    2. I want to revist the coating the inside thing...is it preferrable to use a more effective coating with respect to temp reduction, or is it better to use a smooth coating?

    Thanks

    E

  8. #28
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  9. #29
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    Originally posted by Jake:
    Does it make sense to get a $140 header a $150 coating? Here's the bugger:
    Heres whats really funny. (I have an IT/A Corolla, and have had several custom MR2's, including a 20v one).

    The picture says Corolla, but is the MR2 header!

    It's essentially junk, and makes about the same power as stock, but I couldn't resist doing an aftermarket one either.

    Anyhow, if you are serious about doing the best you can in IT, Have it coated, AND wrap it. Reduced temps and the ability to make more power due to the retained energy in the gas flow. Hotter headers = faster deterioration, but the ceramic takes care of that part.

    Suck it up and do both.


    [This message has been edited by Spinnetti (edited October 24, 2004).]

  10. #30
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    Originally posted by Spinnetti:
    It's essentially junk, and makes about the same power as stock, but I couldn't resist doing an aftermarket one either.
    After additional research, I've come to the same conclusion. Apparently the stock header puts out the same power. Oh well - at least that's less work for me!

  11. #31
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    Originally posted by Spinnetti:
    (I have an IT/A Corolla, and have had several custom MR2's, including a 20v one
    Any tips for making the 4AGE a little quicker?


  12. #32
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    Originally posted by Jake:
    Any tips for making the 4AGE a little quicker?

    Jake,

    not really. The 4AGE doesn't have much left in it in stock configuration. That being said, theres LOTS of little things that add up: Run the lightest clutch you can find (solid hub, 4 puck ceramic).040 overbore pistons, cam timing with offset key, rising rate fuel regulator (stock system goes lean on full throttle), blueprint the injectors, get good plug wires (I run TRD), use a EGT to tune fuel pressure, Denso Iridium plugs gapped .045 or so, Index the plugs, bump the timing up a few points, run regular gas (burns faster), blueprint, balance as much as possible, underdrive pulleys, Surface the head, thermally insulating intake gaskets, header (lighter if nothing else), Thermally wrap the intake and exhaust, remove and block off all the smog stuff etc... Also, not much point in ECU mods.. there's essentially nothing to be gained there.
    Theres more stuff, but can't think of it right now... email me sometime if you want. Have plenty of MR2/Corolla GT-S/Toyota experience..

    BTW, I watched some of your videos - you guys are NUTS! It looks more like the ole figure 8 racing than the IT that I'm familiar with!


  13. #33
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    Originally posted by Spinnetti:
    Also, not much point in ECU mods.. there's essentially nothing to be gained there.
    Jake already is the master of the ONE that works.

    Other than that, you're pretty well spot-on. And, yeah, even TED's custom IT header only makes about 3HP over stock. It does shave about 15# off the rear (MR2, obviously).

    And Cherokee - I've always been ITANorm on this forum - I'm ITA-MR2 over on www.MR2OC.com.



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    Norm - #55 ITA, '86 MR2. [email protected]

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  14. #34
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    Sorry...I got my boards confused.

    I still have my MR2...the wife is thinking about wanting to race...that would be too much fun. Execpt I would have to get a bigger trailer and something to tow it with. She is pretty good on things with motors, she spent the weekend riding dirt bikes up and down the Arkansas mountains. Arkansas has mountins to folks in Kansas.

  15. #35
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    Originally posted by cherokee:
    I would have to get a bigger trailer and something to tow it with.
    Segue . . .

    Have you checked out my truck / trailer for sale ad in the Classified section?? (Cheap promo.)


  16. #36
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    That would be one VERY BIG step up from the old 76 Dodge motorhome that I have now.

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