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Thread: Since we had so much fun with cam timing..how about Brakes

  1. #21
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    I don't see any provision.

    Lines are lines and valves are valves and people know the difference. I also don't see it being within the spirit of IT. But the spirit is secondary. Just don't see how it could slide under the rules.


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    George Roffe
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  2. #22
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    Originally posted by Geo:
    I don't see any provision.

    Lines are lines and valves are valves and people know the difference. I also don't see it being within the spirit of IT. But the spirit is secondary. Just don't see how it could slide under the rules.


    George,

    You're allowed to use AN line w/ AN fittings. A check valve is just another type of AN fitting. You're allowed to fit a remote oil cooler, or an Accusump. Doesn't say anything in there about explicitly being allowed to use check valves, but I bet everybody that's running an Accusump has one.


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  3. #23
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    QUOTE=George,
    You're allowed to use AN line w/ AN fittings. A check valve is just another type of AN fitting. You're allowed to fit a remote oil cooler, or an Accusump. Doesn't say anything in there about explicitly being allowed to use check valves, but I bet everybody that's running an Accusump has one."

    This is timely as I was just looking at prices for the Accusump and was wondering about check valves. When I walked the pits at VIR I saw a lot of these things and check valves.

    Therefore, seems that everyone I saw was running check valves on these things, despite it not being explictedly stated in the rules. By inference, one could do the same on brake lines.

    Just my 0.02 cents from the newbie persepective. It is no suprise the SCCA doesn't have a lot of young members, going through the rule book is an exercise in patience when you have to read the rule, compare it to actual practice, and then worry about this "spirit of the rules thing". About like an Unholy trinity.

    My guess is had I built (still building) my car on an island, with no internet or personal SCCA racer help, only the rulebook and my interpretation as a guide, my car would be quite different than the average IT car and, quite uncompetitive.

  4. #24
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    <font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...going through the rule book is an exercise in patience...like an Unholy trinity...had I built...with no internet or personal SCCA racer help...my car would be quite different...</font>
    Ron, you are absolutely spot-on the first point. This is the kind of thing you will find in *any* large and/or older organzation, regardless of the industry. There will always be people within it that have been tehre for a long time, making and following rules for decades, and there will always be a partial "groupthink" and "the way things are" mindset. It's inevitable and expected.

    Hell, consider, for example, relative newcomers Southwest Airlines and JetBlue's method of doing business versus Delta and American. total different mindset, total different culture.

    However, I disagree with you on the second part. This same groupthink and midset can be a significant corporate ADVANTAGE when it comes to rules Take, for example, such mods as remote reservoir shocks, spherical bearings, and MoTec ignition systems in Improved Touring. Each one of those clever "advances" came from new people who read the rules and applied new technology. These items were never *intended* to be allowed and totally blindsided the "way things have always been done" crowd, but through the new perspective they were introduced and have become a competitive advantage. Some, such as the remote reservoirs, were eventaully specifically banned but others have prevailed.

    I believe the true competitive advantage comes from both an open mind *and* the experience of time. Those that have that are the ones that advance through the ranks. You can and have gained some the experience via direct contact here and other places, but I encourage you to keep your newbie mind open to the possibilities out there that no one else has yet seen...

    GregA


  5. #25
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    I don't think an accusump (or similar pressure accumulation system) is a fair comparison...

    The ITCS allows you to add that system to your car....it doesn't list what is and what isn't part of the system. Ergo, if it says you can, you can

    However, the ITCS allows you to substitute brake lines and revise circuitry. In other words, you can revise the way the existing lines are run, but the word "add" isn't used and adding check valves and new lines to an existing system is beyond the scope of the provisions.

    Ron...you're right...but some embrace the challenge of the rule book, and that it allows free thinking guys like my pal (and future ITA competitor... grand, just grand!) Greg Amy to solve some problems where others just read what they assume is there and leave items on the table.

    It is in a constant state of evolution, and could probably use a rewriting as it is getting pretty patched....but considering the number of cars it covers, the complexity of the systems, the diversity of the systems, and the amount of time the category has been in existance, is is to be expected that there might be an issue or conflict or oversight here and there.

    Eliminating 75% of the models that are classified would really simplify things, the rulebook would end up making more sense, be streamlined, and parity would improve, but then the charm of IT would be lost. So, I look at the book as part of that charm, kinda like an old car!

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    Jake Gulick
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  6. #26
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    I'm in agreement with Jake on this one that the comparison with the Accusump is not the same.

    Ron, kudos on reading the rule book with an open mind. I'd suggest writing to Topeka. Or you could run it until someone protests you and getting an answer that way.


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    George Roffe
    Houston, TX
    84 944 ITS car under construction
    92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
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  7. #27
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    [B[
    However, the ITCS allows you to substitute brake lines and revise circuitry. In other words, you can revise the way the existing lines are run, but the word "add" isn't used and adding check valves and new lines to an existing system is beyond the scope of the provisions.[/B]
    Revise, well....
    ----
    Re*vise", v. t. [imp. & p. p. Revised; p. pr. & vb. n. Revising.] [F. reviser, fr. L. revidere, revisum, to see again; pref. re- re- + videre, visum, to see. See Review, View.] 1. To look at again for the detection of errors; to re["e]xamine; to review; to look over with care for correction; as, to revise a writing; to revise a translation.

    2. (Print.) To compare (a proof) with a previous proof of the same matter, and mark again such errors as have not been corrected in the type.

    3. To review, alter, and amend; as, to revise statutes; to revise an agreement; to revise a dictionary.
    ---
    Key word being alter. Which, according to OED means:
    al·ter ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ôltr)
    v. al·tered, al·ter·ing, al·ters
    v. tr.
    To change or make different; modify: altered my will.
    To adjust (a garment) for a better fit.
    To castrate or spay (an animal, such as a cat or a dog).

    Not so much of a stretch. But, we really shouldn't have to go through such semantics to build a car and follow the rules. George doesn't feel the Accusump comparison is valid, others do - just another example of how these things can be interpreted many different ways.

    And a young fellow just asked me last night about racing in the SCCA, but I'll open that up on another thread because it certainly highlights some of the problems with our system.




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    Ron
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  8. #28
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    Originally posted by rlearp:
    Revise, well....

    3. To review, alter, and amend
    Indeed. Nobody is saying you cannot alter the circuitry. That is called out in the rules. The crux of the discussion is whether adding a check valve for fluid recirculation would be considered altering the circuitry or if it's simply adding a part. Also, another point for discussion/argument is the addition of lines for the recirculation and whether or not that would be legal.

    Originally posted by rlearp:
    And a young fellow just asked me last night about racing in the SCCA, but I'll open that up on another thread because it certainly highlights some of the problems with our system.
    Unless your run a spec class there is no way the rules can cover all situtations explicitly, past, present, and future.

    Again, it doesn't take much to send an e-mail to Jeremy.


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    George Roffe
    Houston, TX
    84 944 ITS car under construction
    92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
    http://www.nissport.com

  9. #29
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    Originally posted by rlearp:
    To change or make different; modify: altered my will.
    To adjust (a garment) for a better fit.

    Not so much of a stretch. But, we really shouldn't have to go through such semantics to build a car and follow the rules. George doesn't feel the Accusump comparison is valid, others do - just another example of how these things can be interpreted many different ways.

    Well, even in a spec series there are issues that come up like this!

    Issues of definitions often require extra clarification.

    To use your example, is adding an extra arm to the garment considered "altering"? I don't think so. Altering would be lengthening the existing arm, or adjusting the cut of the arm at the shoulder to improve fit, but an extra arm would result in a different garment

    But, as always, it's just MHO...

    ------------------
    Jake Gulick
    CarriageHouse Motorsports
    ITA 57 RX-7
    New England Region
    [email protected]

    [This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited September 26, 2004).]

  10. #30
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    Don't know about garments. All I know is alter means "To change or make different; modify" per the dictionary. I suppose that adding a check valve and recirculation is altering, or changing or making different. It'd fit the letter of the law.

    Ron

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    Ron
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  11. #31
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    Originally posted by rlearp:
    Don't know about garments. All I know is alter means "To change or make different; modify" per the dictionary. I suppose that adding a check valve and recirculation is altering, or changing or making different. It'd fit the letter of the law.

    Ron

    Altering is altering. Adding is adding and not specifically allowed in this rule.


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    George Roffe
    Houston, TX
    84 944 ITS car under construction
    92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
    http://www.nissport.com

  12. #32
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    Guys-

    I'll have to speak up on this one... It seems to me that a revision in the plumbing is allowed, therefore any number of T-fittings, elbows, and check valves would be okay in my book. However...

    My (underqualified) technical opinion is that simply adding a check valve and a return line upstream of the caliper won't solve your heat problem. If you look carefully at recirculating braking systems they are designed to circulate fluid though the caliper itself and have fittings on the front and back of the caliper (before and after the piston as the fluid flows). That way the fresh fluid being drawn into the caliper is what actually cools the piston. In order for that to happen on an IT car with stock brakes you would have to modify the caliper, a definite no-no.

    You'd have a far easier time of cooling the brakes with ducted air. The "top hat" solution is a time-honored and effective method. The cost to benefit ratio of plumbing a return line on the brake fluid would be way too large an investment (timewise) for my tastes.

    My $0.02

    -Tom

  13. #33
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    Tom, thanks for the thoughts. I'm going to duct the hell out of the thing, including a duct to the caliper.

    By the way, the "recirculating" valve uses a line coming off of the brake bleeder screw, so no modifiation to the caliper required.....kind of neat actually.

  14. #34
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    Hey - it just struck me that I already have check valves in my calipers. Speed Bleeders. Am I in trouble?

    K

  15. #35
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    Oh s--- !! Don't go there

  16. #36
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    [openpandorasbox] Thanks, K! [/pandorasbox]

  17. #37
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    Some AS'ers tried this and were shot down. I was going to, under "the fittings are free" concept, but I was told by Denver (at the time) that because I was creating a device with the allowed fittings that was not expressly allowed, it was not legal
    YMMV

  18. #38
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    While we're busy looking up words in our Funk & Wagnalls, don't forget the first rule of rule interpretation. The FIRST place you look up the definition of the word is in the glossary at the back of the GCR section of your rule book. If the word (or expression, in the case of more than one word) is in there, you use THAT definition. Otherwise, the F&W is fair game.

    Cheers,

    Chris Camadella
    ITS Porsche 944S

  19. #39
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    I would like to compliment GregA for his wonderful comments above, just for the record...

    On a more serious note, if your brake fluid is melting the piston o-ring, I think you need to radio Houston that we have a problem. It should not be that hard, on an IT car, to cool the brakes sufficiently unless you have a 240Z. Add the cans like it shows in the CS books. Add a gizmo that directs the cooling air into the eye of the rotor, if you have vented rotors. Get good brake fluid (I use AP550, but YMMV). Change it often. Make sure the piston isn't getting stuck. Don't rest your foot on the brake pedal while motoring down the straights. Don't brake so much!

    Actually, lots of folks who are new to racing wear out the brakes. I did it myself. The problem is really that you brake too much, or too gradually, and that heats up the brakes. Racing is just like playing the piano. You just practice, practice, practice, just like the old joke about how you get to Carnegie hall.

    Cheers,

    Chris Camadella
    ITS Porsche 944S

  20. #40
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    Originally posted by ChrisCamadella:
    ... It should not be that hard, on an IT car, to cool the brakes sufficiently unless you have a 240Z. ...
    ...or a wedge-shaped British sports car with a Buick V8. Chris might have missed that fact.

    K


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