Cam Timing

[Geo]

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
I believe the entire intent of allowing offset keys was that so you are able to return the cam timing back to stock specs after milling the head.

I hope so since there is no provision for using them for anything else.

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
I'd argue that "may" means allowable as opposed to prohibited. Not "may" as in if you wish to, but you don't have to.

Nah. If "may" meant you had to, the people who wrote the rule were flat out stupid since may means may (as in optional). Must means it's required.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by Geo:
Nah. If "may" meant you had to, the people who wrote the rule were flat out stupid since may means may (as in optional). Must means it's required.

George I am not suggesting that "MAY" meant you "had" to. Only that there use is allowed under certain circumstances. I am not suggesting that they mean "MUST" because there are instances where it is not needed to bring things back in time.

[lateapex911]

Methinks this is a case where the IIDSYCYC is in conflict with the rules as written. I suspect the better phrasing would have been: "Offset cam keys shall be used to return cam timing to stock tolerances except where stock adjustable gears can be used to the same effect."

I think a letter is well founded, and I suggest a slight rewording of the rule is in order.

Darins example is similar to the old Kim Baker showroom stock Chevy motor builds where he was sponsored by Chevy, who shipped him hundreds of pistons, rods, cams, and yes, cam gears no doubt, to build a motor that fell at the sweet end of the tolerances. But the difference is that Darin sees no reason that using stock parts that result in a situation where the timing is out of spec is illegal.

And from the information I read here, it would be tough to prove either way.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
NO, I disagree... COMPLETELY!

The ITCS does NOT tell you you can adjust your ignition timing, your tire air pressure (would you argue that you have to run the stock, FSM recommended air pressures?), your belt tension, etc., etc...

The intent is to run the engine as it was designed from the factory, with the exception of allowed deviations...

If my car comes from the factory with adjustable cam timing, I'm adjusting it, just as I would with ignition timing, valve adjustments, etc.

I can be swayed to buy into an argument the other way, if someone can quote DEFINITIVELY from the ITCS anywhere where it says I must run the factory specifications for these items...

Again, just my opinion...

Darin and Bill,

I am with Bill on this one. Not that it matters a damn bit. We don't know what the original rule writers' intent was unless we were one of them.

This is one of the fundamental problems with the ITCS and GCR. It has been mentioned here several times, unless you can go back and rewrite the whole thing starting with a clean slate we will have conflicts in rule writing style.

We agree we are allowed to adjust ignition timing outside of factory specs because it says it is "free". It doesn't say that about "cam timing" so if that is what the intent is why doesn't it say so?

If we expect it to tell us everything that we can do, where does it stop? Air pressure free? Oil viscosity free? Oil level free? Fuel level free? Belt tension free? (ask old Vee guys about that one). You get the idea.

Because of the VTEC/VANOS/VVTI etc systems and the ECU rule I would certainly support a rule to allow open cam timing, but I don't believe it is currently legal.

------------------
Daryl DeArman

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
The ITCS does NOT tell you you can adjust your ignition timing,

I need to correct myself here... the ITCS DOES say that ignition timing is free...

As for the rest of it... I'll stick by my position that if it's factory adjustable, I'm allowed to adjust it...



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
... but I don't believe it is currently legal.

But that's the crux of all this really... I can't SHOW you that it's legal, and you can't SHOW me that it's not...

All I'm required to do is use stock, enabled, unmodified, unaltered components.

ITCS 17.1.4.B Intent
Other than those specifically allowed by these rules, no component or part normally found on a stock example of a given vehicle may be disabled, altered, or removed for the purpose of obtaining any competitive advantage.

If I order a set of cam gears and install them per factory methods (i.e.: no way to adjust them, no keyway modifications, now offset keys, etc...), and the resulting timing is other than "blueprint" specs... I'm still perfectly legal, even if it results in a less than optimum spec...

What you guys are trying to say is that I'm REQUIRED to search through ALL of the replacement cam gears I might find and ONLY use those that result in straight up, factory spec cam timing... The rest I have to throw away, even though they are stock, unmodified, unaltered, and fully enabled, etc...

Sorry, I just don't buy that. After all, "Blueprinting" is ALLOWED... It's NOT REQUIRED...

If I purchase a bone stock car, put a cage in it, race it in IT, and later check the cam timing and find that it's other than "factory spec", even though the engine has NEVER been opened, adjusted, or otherwise touched by human hands since it left the factory, is the motor illegal??? That would be SILLY...

Again, if something is FACTORY adjustable, as is the case with the situation that started this thread, AND the ITCS ALLOWS you to use this factory adjustable piece, as the ITCS does in the same situation, then the piece is allowed to be adjusted, as the factory intended. If not, the ITCS would specify that "factory cam timing must be within FSM specs", or something to that effect.

Otherwise, show me where the ITCS disallows a factory adjustable piece to be adjusted within it's normal range of adjustment... I just re-read the ITCS and I just don't see it in there...

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited September 23, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited September 23, 2004).]

[lateapex911]

Well....and I write this knowing that intent has nothing to do with what the rules say and don't say, but here is an interesting line that certainly speaks to the presumed intent of the rules makers to retain stock cam timing:

On engines with dual overhead camshafts, this key shall be installed on the crankshaft only.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Bill Miller]

Jake,

That's why I said what I did about reading things in context vs. in isolation. If there were no other statements about cam timing, I'd go w/ the 'adjust it to whatever you want' theory. But since there are other (more than one) statements that talk about stock cam timing, that's where I see the intent.

Darin,

You didn't have anything to say about competitive advantage, and how the adjustable gears factored into the spec. weight.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Darin,

You didn't have anything to say about competitive advantage, and how the adjustable gears factored into the spec. weight.

It's been stated numerous times and should be rather obvious... HP potential is considered stongly in the process...



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Geo]

Originally posted by Quickshoe:
George I am not suggesting that "MAY" meant you "had" to. Only that there use is allowed under certain circumstances. I am not suggesting that they mean "MUST" because there are instances where it is not needed to bring things back in time.

Ahhhhh. Got it. Had to drill through my thick skull.

You may be right. However, I will go back to what I've said many times - intent is irrelevant. What is written is what is relevant.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Again, if something is FACTORY adjustable, as is the case with the situation that started this thread, AND the ITCS ALLOWS you to use this factory adjustable piece, as the ITCS does in the same situation, then the piece is allowed to be adjusted, as the factory intended. If not, the ITCS would specify that "factory cam timing must be within FSM specs", or something to that effect.

I'm with Darin. This falls under "If it says you can, you bloody well can." The ITCS says you can use them so you can. It places no restriction on them so there is none.

If it says you can, you bloody well can.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
You didn't have anything to say about competitive advantage, and how the adjustable gears factored into the spec. weight.

First there is the fact that we were not given all the the history behind what was done in the past.

Second, this is another tempest in a tea pot. How many cars with factory adjustable cam gears are dominating IT? Hell, how many cars in IT have factory adjustable cam gears?


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Greg Amy]

Darin sez:

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">The intent is to run the engine as it was designed from the factory, with the exception of allowed deviations...</font>

He also sez:

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...then the piece is allowed to be adjusted, as the factory intended. If not, the ITCS would specify that \"factory cam timing must be within FSM specs\", or something to that effect.</font>

The factory never intended for this adjustable cam sprocket to be used to adjust the cam timing outside the FSM-specified values. The FSM specifies the factory intentions with something to the effect of, "adjust the cam to these values."

Thus, absent any ITCS allowance outside the factory tolerances (as with *any* FSM tolerance, such as is done with blueprinting) the cam timing must be within FSM values.

The tire pressures thing is a silly red herring: alternate tires ARE allowed, and the tire pressure are recommended by the tire manufacturer. I would wager that most FSMs (or owners manuals) likely refer the the reader to the tire manufacturer for pressures.

George sez:

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">The ITCS says you can use them so you can. It places no restriction on them so there is none...If it says you can, you bloody well can.</font>

George, you've always been the big cheerleader about IIDSYCTYC. However, your statement above disregards that. Let's take a stroll down Logic Lane:

- ITCS says the factory adjustable cam sprocket is legal.
- ITCS also says IIDSYCTYC.
- ITCS does NOT specify that the camshaft timing can be adjusted outside of specs.
- Thus, is it not legal to adjust the cam timing out of specs.

If one were to take your position on this - that since it's adjustable, and since the ITCS allows it to be adjustable, and since the ITCS does not limit that adjustability - how far can one go with that logic?

For example, MANY things are "adjustable" on the car, such as internal engine tolerances (remember, "adjustable" has no specifics on the "ease" of doing so); therefore, since the factory made these dimensions "adjustable" (with tolerances listed in the FSM) and since the ITCS does not limit these tolerances specifically, can I therefore under the "blueprinting" allowance adjust them to where I wish?

Yes, George, you bloody well can, as long as it says you can. However, nowhere in the ITCS does it say you "can" adjust ANYTHING to the physical limits of its adjustability. Those limits are imposed by the FSM.

GA


[This message has been edited by grega (edited September 23, 2004).]

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by grega:
For example, MANY things are "adjustable" on the car, such as internal engine tolerances (remember, "adjustable" has no specifics on the "ease" of doing so

That's BS... Internal engine tolerances can only be changed by "altering" parts (machining block, crank, etc...) and by removing/adding material... both of which are CLEARLY spelled out as being illegal in the ITCS... or by mixing and matching factory components, a situation that I described above (cam gears) and which you guys are still claiming would result in an illegal engine.

A better example would be alignment... The ITCS clearly allows methods to adjust the alignment, but nowhere does it say that the specs for this are "free"... How many of you are adjusting your camber and toe to the factory specs? On the ignition example, the ITCS clearly states that timing is free. Since it doesn't say this for alignment, using the logic you guys are presenting, do these settings have to be set to FSM specs?

In my opinion, the allowance to run a part that is adjustable, implies that adjustment of the settings controlled by that piece is allowed within the range of the adjustment. If someone has another example where this is not the case, please provide it, because, again, I just don't see it.

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX



[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited September 23, 2004).]

[Greg Amy]

"Bullshit", Darin? I fully accept that you may disagree with others' position, but I'd hardly call those opinions that differ from yours "bullshit".

The suspension alignments are yet ANOTHER "Darin Red Herring". Where the ITCS rules deviate from IIDSYCTYC is when a modification or substitution is specifically allowed. When any modification or substition is allowed, the premise moves from IIDSYCTYC to "subject to the limitations specified, you can do anything you want with this" (witness spherical bearings and MoTec ignitions). Since virtually all suspension-related components (and many suspension locating devices such eccentric bushings, camber bolts)are allowed to be modified and/or replaced, the alignment specifications of such parts are also allowed to deviate from the FSM specs.

On the other hand, in our particular debated example, there are no ITCS allowed modifications in regards to factory-installed cam gears or camshafts, thus all components must meet FSM spec, including the factory-authorized cam timing specs.

Next red herring?

Darin, if it is your position that anything that CAN be "adjusted" is not in any way limited to the specifications in the factory workshop manual, then I'd *LOVE* to make that official as I have some very clever things I'd like to try (especially when we start debating the definition of "adjustable"...)

GA

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
... or by mixing and matching factory components, a situation that I described above (cam gears) and which you guys are still claiming would result in an illegal engine.

Well, I think it could result in an engine that fails to meet factory specs, dependant on those specs and tolerances, but the resolution is unclear, as the word "may" has been used in reference to the method of correction for out of spec cam timing.

The suspension example is not comparable as the ITCS states that you may use those parts to adjust camber and caster and/or toe, so thats an allowance, and it says you can, so you can.

In my opinion, the allowance to run a part that is adjustable, implies that adjustment of the settings controlled by that piece is allowed within the range of the adjustment.

Whooooa..."implies"???? Doesn't it also imply that the timing should be stock by the reference to the plastic gears matching factory timing specs, AND by the comment that dual cams use ONE offset key to reset cam timing to factory scpecs? Thats TWO implications that they want the specs to meet factory tolerances...so you prefer your "implcation" over two others that are contrary? Can't blame you for wanting that to be the case! But George is right...intent and implication are not the proper tools to use when reading what the book says. I still think a clarification is needed to resolve what I see as a written conflict.

I am still thinking that the ITCS has forbidden adjustable cam gears for those cars not originally equippped, and those cars originally equipped can use those gears in leau of an offset key to acheive factory specs. The Jensen is lucky in that so many specs may exist for that car, and the best one can be chosen from the appropriate assembly on the spec line.

So, IMHO, choose the best specification that fits the hardware configuration that you are working on and adjust to that. But remeber the specifications may be appropriate only to whole assemblies, and mixing and matching isn't allowed.

(In the Jensen's case, the factory probably put the adjustable gears in because they: couldn't make accurate parts?..or they hadn't figured out what the specs should be?...or they figured it was the easy way to have the car meet the emission requirements in different markets. I doubt that they included it with a note in the owners manual or the FSM..."Have fun guys, the engine really rips at 10 degrees after"!)

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited September 23, 2004).]

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by grega:
...I'd hardly call those opinions that differ from yours "bullshit".

Good Point... I'll retract the BS statement and replace it with "I Disagree..."

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> The suspension alignments are yet ANOTHER \"Darin Red Herring\".</font>

BS!!! It's a perfect example that illustrates the point... Just because you happen to disagree with my point of view on that does NOT make it a "red herring"... (touche' )

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> Where the ITCS rules deviate from IIDSYCTYC is when a modification or substitution is specifically allowed. When any modification or substition is allowed, the premise moves from IIDSYCTYC to \"subject to the limitations specified, you can do anything you want with this\" (witness spherical bearings and MoTec ignitions). Since virtually all suspension-related components (and many suspension locating devices such eccentric bushings, camber bolts)are allowed to be modified and/or replaced, the alignment specifications of such parts are also allowed to deviate from the FSM specs.</font>

So, do you realize you are saying here that if you DON'T "modify or replace" these components, i.e.: don't add camber plates or offset bushings, the settings MUST meet FSM specs?? Is that REALLY how you think the ITCS should be interpreted? I shouldn't be able to set my camber outside of the factory specs with existing adjustments on the car??? That's the argument you are making, and I definately disagree with this point of view... Mostly because it's simply wrong...

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...there are no ITCS allowed modifications in regards to factory-installed cam gears or camshafts, thus all components must meet FSM spec, including the factory-authorized cam timing specs.</font>

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT MAKING "MODIFICATIONS" HERE!! Again, go back to the situation I described above where the installation of a factory component results in timing outside of the FSM spec (due to whatever variances in production parts that happen to exist)... These are STOCK, UNMODIFIED pieces... Is the engine illegal because of them? The parts and assembly meets the letter of the rule, and THAT is what matters.

The case in point is a completely stock, factory piece, that is specifically allowed by the ITCS. You state that "When any modification or substition is allowed, the premise moves from IIDSYCTYC to "subject to the limitations specified, you can do anything you want with this" WHY does his only apply to "modifications" or "substitutions"??? WHY would it not apply to parts that are simply "allowed" as well???

I just don't see the logic in that interpretation...

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX



[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited September 23, 2004).]

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...you are saying here that if you DON'T \"modify or replace\" these (suspension) components...the (alignment) settings MUST meet FSM specs??</font>

No, absolutely not. I do not understand how you interpret that in any manner. What the rules say is that "these specific modifications/replacements" are allowed in any form, and in any combination thereof in whole or part. Thus, even if I do NOT replace any suspension components, I am still allowed to use the extent of the physical suspension adjustments because they are a portion of the allowed modifications.

Same goes for tire pressures: even if I choose to run the stock Continental Radialectomies on my car, I can still use any tire pressure I wish because they are a portion of the allowable modifications for tires.

However, on the cam timing gears, there is no allowance for any modifications from stock to the cam timing gear, thus all stock specifications - including cam timing - apply.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT MAKING \"MODIFICATIONS\" HERE!!</font>

Exactly. So what makes you think that you are allowed to use a non-factory specification regarding the installation of that supposed-to-be stock part?

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...installation of a factory component results in timing outside of the FSM spec (due to whatever variances in production parts that happen to exist)...Is the engine illegal because of them?</font>

Of course it is! If you believe this is not the case, what keeps me from claiming that, for instance, that "whatever" part that I installed is simply a production variance? Would a receipt from the dealer (for instance, a Datsun 510 camshaft) suffice to prove it's a legal part?

The very fact that a part's specs don't match the FSM numbers is de facto proof that is illegal under ITCS. How else would you define "illegal"?

(Edit: in re-reading Darin's question, I'm inferring he's leading me down this path: if the cam timing is out of spec because of an allowed head shaving, would the car be illegal? My answer is "no" because that out-of-spec cam timing is as a direct result of an allowable modification, and the rules state "may" versus "must" on the use of an offset key to correct that condition. Further, but not necessarily relevant, on most engines this will result in an undesired condition of retarding the timing.

However, if the builder chooses to use the allowed offset key to adjust the cam timing, it is their responsibility to return the timing spec to within the FSM values.)

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">WHY does his only apply to \"modifications\" or \"substitutions\"???</font>

Because, Darin, "if it doesn't say you can" deviate from the factory specifications "you cannot."

Plain and simple.


[This message has been edited by grega (edited September 23, 2004).]

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by grega:
Because, Darin, "if it doesn't say you can" deviate from the factory specifications "you cannot."

Plain and simple.

The rules say you CAN use an Adjustable Cam gear if it was "fitted as stock".

It says you CAN... Plain and simple...


Since you guys can't seem to provide the hard evidence to refute my case, I decided to stop playing devil's advocate and do it for you. This both proves that the adjustable cam gears are allowed to be adjusted, and that "exceeding" the FSM specs for otherwise non-adjustable parts (my cam gear case above) is not allowed...

2003 GCR Section 22 - Definitions

Blue Printing -
The practice of engine improvement achieved by the use of selected standard parts and/or by optimizing the factory machined surfaces of stock engine components to achieve the most advantageous specifications within the normal range as defined by the manufacturer for that engine.

Within the above definition of blueprinting, any procedures that involve the following are NOT permitted unless specifically authorized:

a) The addition of material of any kind to any component (this includes, but is not limited to, the addition of sleeves/bushings and the application of anti-friction, oil shedding and thermal barrier/retention coatings).

The machining, tooling or any other physical or chemical modification, etc. etc...

c) Mixing/Matching of parts from any other year, make, model or type of vehicle or engine.

d) Balancing procedures that involve spot machining of ALL rotating and/or reciprocating parts (i.e.: on rod/piston assembly must remain untouched).

NOTE: Under no circumstances may any factory spcification be exceeded as a result of any permitted blueprinting operations(s) (i.e.: compression ratio, valve lift, bore, stroke, etc.).

I would have to say that the note at the end there would be sufficient to make a case for the illegality of my cam gear scenario metioned earlier.

However, the opening statement, specifically, the part about achieving "the most advantageous specifications within the normal range as defined by the manufacturer for that engine", would help prove a case to allow adjustable cam gears to be adjusted "within the normal range" as defined by the slot in the cam gear, which was designed and defined by the manufacturer of that engine...

So, I'll conceed that all other cases must meet an acceptable range for factory cam timing specs. BUT, the allowance of adjustable cam gears is an allowance for them to be adjusted within the limits they were designed to be adjusted within, or so me thinkist...


------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited September 23, 2004).]

[Geo]

Gadzooks!

Looks like we got us a bonide Holy War!

OK, as brief as possible....

First of all, a letter to Jeremy is probably in order to settle this. It's becoming quite circular.

Second, I would submit that specifications and settings are regulated through parts NOT through limits on adjustments.

What limits lift and duration? The fact that the stock cam must be used.

What limits your alignment settings? The extent of the adjustment of stock parts, or legal aftermarket parts, or legal modifications.

Reasonable people may disagree and I'm sure some or many of you may disagree with this. It's my take. But I'll bet that a letter to Jeremy would allow stock adjustable cam gears to be adjusted to their limit.

There is no place in the ITCS that states cam timing MUST be stock. If I shave the head on an OHC engine it will alter the cam timing. I MAY return it to stock using an offset key. It doesn't say I MUST.

Greg, you mentioned I am a proponent of IIDSYCYC. True. That's what the rule book says. But I've ALWAYS put for the saying "If it says you can, you bloody well can."

Where the ITCS specifically states you may use stock adjustable cam gears and doesn't place any limits on those adjustments, I believe you can use the full measure of the adjustment allowed by the part (see above).


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com