Cam Timing

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...entirely different standalone ECU from a different company without using the stock system at all?</font>

Ron, just to make sure you're clear, alternate ECUs are allowed if they fit in the stock unmodifed housing using the stock unmodifed wiring harness.

Of course, that restriction does not stop some folks from using high-tech aftermarket systems, such as MoTec, but that's another story... GA

[Tom Donnelly]

So, a person can sell their ridiculously expensive remote reservoir shocks (which aren't in the spirit of IT) and use the money for a SMALL down payment on a MoTec system (laptop not included).

It all makes sense to me now. Especially since threaded body shocks are going to be legal. Was it those nifty remote reservoirs that caused the rucus?

It just irritates me because the major rant against RR shocks was price. Anyone priced a MoTec system lately?

Go look on their website. Why aren't you as adamant about this as you were about RR shocks Geo? I'm not angry but we really butted heads about this a couple years back. I just don't see much difference except MoTec is about 4x as pricey.

Sorry about stealing the thread. If I remember correctly we all just agreed to disagree.

Tom

[Greg Amy]

Tom, I don't think you'll find anyone that disagrees with you, even within those that use MoTecs. However, in order to be competitive in certain ranks, you gotta run it, 'cause others will.

If it makes you feel any better, I honestly do not believe that those who wrote that rule ever considered someone would spend thousands in order to fit a MoTec system into a stock ECU housing using an unmodified wiring harness. In fact, I'd wager that they worded the rule this way INTENDING to disallow such systems. Ah, but therein lies the folly of trying to micro-manage your rules: there's just too many clever folks out there and someone will drive a truck right through the loophole you thought you just closed...

[Tom Donnelly]

Greg,

Yep, I figure you're right. You know that since the RR shocks discussions I have trouble resisting the temptation to pick on George.

I met you and the other "yankees" at the ARRC last year but Geo wasn't there. Any chance this year? These discussions are more fun (and less serious/angry/violent!) since then. JMHO.

Tom

[Bill Miller]

Find me a place in the ITCS that flatly states cam timing must be stock.

I already did George, it's the section that allows you to switch out plastic/phenolic timing gears for metal ones.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Cars originally equipped withe plastic/phenolic timing gears may substitute metal gears, provided that the design, dimenstions, and cam timing remain as stock. Adjustable timing gears are prohibited on all cars unless fitted as stock.</font>

Says right there, in black and white, that cam timing will remain as stock.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Says right there, in black and white, that cam timing will remain as stock.

Well, actually, it only says that for "Cars originally equipped with plastic / phenolic timing gears" who are substituting metal gears... AND, it's only saying that IF they replace those plastic gears for metal ones... AND, this says nothing of the "cam gears", which may be considered separate pieces on my car from the "timing" gears, though this could be argued to be considered part of a "timing set" of gears...

Additionally, I think the case in point, namely the gentleman with the factory adjustable timing gears, is covered with the "Adjustable timing gears are prohibited on all cars unless fitted as stock." Since they are stock, and they are adjustable, they must have been intended, by the factory, to BE adjusted, and therefore, are allowed to be adjusted... anywhere within the factory provided adjustment range...

So, I really don't see, with the exception of the limited case above (phenolic gears being replaced with metal), where we are limited to "stock cam timing" when using the legal stock cam timing gears...

I spent over two hours with a timing wheel and about 8 different sets of stock gears before I came up with the combination that gave me the cam timing I wanted to try, and I simply don't see anything in the rules that makes this against them...

Just my take...

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited September 20, 2004).]

[Bill Miller]

Darin,

I was simply showing George that the ITCS did indeed say cam timing must be stock.

You said you tried 8 different sets of stock timing gears on your car. Is there that much variation between gear sets?

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Geo]

Originally posted by Tom Donnelly:
It just irritates me because the major rant against RR shocks was price. Anyone priced a MoTec system lately?

Go look on their website. Why aren't you as adamant about this as you were about RR shocks Geo? I'm not angry but we really butted heads about this a couple years back. I just don't see much difference except MoTec is about 4x as pricey.

Hey Tom, don't throw anything at me on this issue. I'm with you 100% on the ECU rule. If my name were Bernie and my lawyer friend Max and I wrote the rules I would require the stock circuit board be used. This would allow replacable chips and modifications to baords with soldered chips to be modified to accept sockets for replacable chips.

I'll do anything I can to get rid of the Motecs and similar stand-alones in IT. I don't think they belong for a heartbeat.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by Tom Donnelly:
You know that since the RR shocks discussions I have trouble resisting the temptation to pick on George.

MOMMMMMMM! He's looking at me!

Originally posted by Tom Donnelly:
I met you and the other "yankees" at the ARRC last year but Geo wasn't there. Any chance this year? These discussions are more fun (and less serious/angry/violent!) since then. JMHO.

Well, that may be a possibility, although I won't be racing if I come. The car I was borrowing is totally torn down being converted to EP, and I doubt my car will be ready yet. Even if it is, I'll either still be unemployed and have no budget to race, or freshly employed with no chance of getting off.

If I'm still unemployed I'll probably drive out and stay with my buddy Tim in Sugar Hill (assuming he'll put me up) and come drink your beers, er, I mean bring the beer.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Says right there, in black and white, that cam timing will remain as stock.

Bill, all the rules sections you quote involve specific cases. There is NO place in the ITCS that says "Cam timing will remain stock." Instead it deals with specific cases where cam timing may be altered in some way. The adjustable gear rule does NOT say that the cam timing must remain within FSM specs and it doesn't say that cam timing MUST be set back to stock if the head is shaved.

Cutting hairs, but sometimes that is what must be done.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
I was simply showing George that the ITCS did indeed say cam timing must be stock.

Actually it doesn't Bill. As I said, it covers specific cases only.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Ron Earp]

The way I read it is that yes, if you change gears the timing must remain stock.

It also says that, unless fitted from the factory, adjustable gears are not to be used. We have adjustable gears fitted from the factory, therefore, they are allowed. And, if allowed, then it does not say that they cannot be used. In fact, it singles them out explictedly. I would imagine that if they wanted no adjustments then the rule would be written "No adjustable gears can be used at all. Cars with them at the factory must be fitted with non-adjustable gears and timing must remain at factory specified settings."

I think I'll write them on this one and keep it in my back pocket.

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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Darin,

I was simply showing George that the ITCS did indeed say cam timing must be stock.

I know... I was just having some fun with the ITCS language... Kind of silly, don't you think?

Originally posted by Bill Miller:

You said you tried 8 different sets of stock timing gears on your car. Is there that much variation between gear sets?

I found enough variation that I could actually SEE the difference on some gears when lining up the keyways on the bench... The wheel showed as much as a 3-4 degree difference in some cases... Multiply that times two gears and I was able to get a split that we thought might be favorable...

Haven't had a chance to play on the dyno, but it seems to run pretty strong... Would love a chance to play around with it...


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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Knestis]

I think Ron's on solid ground with his adjustable valve timing parts but...

JUST so I have this straight, did I just read that it has been suggested that (a) if I change my cam gear, then the timing has to be stock but, ( if I DON'T, or if I have a 'pulley' instead of a 'gear,' then I can change the cam timing??

K

[apr67]

Darin, I don't buy your interptation of the rule.

No where in the ITCS does it say you can change cam timing. Regardless of the fact that the rules are poorly written, we are bound by "if it doesn't say you can, you can't".

I'd like to see a protest to solve thisone.

Alan

[Bill Miller]

Alan,

It doesn't say that you can change cam timing, in so many words. However, since it says you're allowed to return the cam timing to stock, via an offset key, if you mill the head, it is impled that, since you are not required to use the offset key, you are allowed to change the cam timing by whatever amount you get through milling the head.

My take on the intent of the rule, is that they don't want us to be able to change cam timing. But that's nothing more than my opinion.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by apr67:
Darin, I don't buy your interptation of the rule.

No where in the ITCS does it say you can change cam timing. Regardless of the fact that the rules are poorly written, we are bound by "if it doesn't say you can, you can't".

I'd like to see a protest to solve thisone.

Alan

Good think my opinion isn't for sale...

There may be nothing in the ITCS that says you can change cam timing, but it DOES say I'm required to run stock gears... If the timing changes as the result of using a completely stock gear, are you suggesting that is illegal?

I think not... I have completely stock gears, both on the intake and exhaust cam, and NO offset key, and my cam timing is NOT factory spec stock... We simply matched gears that were created, by the factory, at different ends of the machining tolerances...

All of this is for not, as there is no requirement for the ignition timing, valve clearances, cam timing, piston clearances, ring gaps, etc., etc, etc. to be factory spec... I'll go back and read through again with all of this in mind, but I just don't think it's there... so this is a silly arguement...

Again, if the car came with adjustable timing gears, then they can be adjusted, per the ITCS, which specifically allows adjustable gears that came stock on the vehicle...


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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Bill Miller]

Darin,

Again, if the car came with adjustable timing gears, then they can be adjusted, per the ITCS, which specifically allows adjustable gears that came stock on the vehicle...

Glad it's just your opinion. And the ITCS says the gears are allowed. It does not say anywhere that you can adjust the cam timing. If you look at things in context, instead of in isolation, IMHO, the intent is to run stock cam timing.

Let me ask you this. Having the ability to adjust your cam timing would be considered a competitive advantage, wouldn't you say? Do you think the cars that have these gears were given an 'adder', because of them?

I think the reason they are allowed on cars that came w/ them stock, is that it's entirely possible that a non-adjustable gear is not available. Would you want to not let a car run, just because it has adjustble cam gears, stock?

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Quickshoe]

Jumping into this one a little late.

I believe the entire intent of allowing offset keys was that so you are able to return the cam timing back to stock specs after milling the head.

Perhaps, back in the day, someone milled their head to the maximum allowed. Only to find that their cam timing was out of factory spec with no provision in the rules to return it to stock.

Further, I believe it says "may use" instead of "must use" because there are probably instances where factory adjustable cam gears can bring it back to spec without the use of an offset key.

Strange to see those "IIDYCTYC" banner wavers that I argued with many many threads ago about "...only if it provides a competetive advantage" now saying that it is okay because it is implied because of the word "may".

I'd argue that "may" means allowable as opposed to prohibited. Not "may" as in if you wish to, but you don't have to.

As far as the MIATA cam gears. They aren't different parts. They are the same, they are only marked with one set of installation holes for use on the in and one for the ex. If cam timing is free with stock cam gears, then why not? The gears are not different, nor are they being modified. They are just being bolted on utilizing existing mounting holes intended for that purpose.


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Daryl DeArman

[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited September 22, 2004).]

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
It does not say anywhere that you can adjust the cam timing. If you look at things in context, instead of in isolation, IMHO, the intent is to run stock cam timing.

NO, I disagree... COMPLETELY!

The ITCS does NOT tell you you can adjust your ignition timing, your tire air pressure (would you argue that you have to run the stock, FSM recommended air pressures?), your belt tension, etc., etc...

The intent is to run the engine as it was designed from the factory, with the exception of allowed deviations...

If my car comes from the factory with adjustable cam timing, I'm adjusting it, just as I would with ignition timing, valve adjustments, etc.

I can be swayed to buy into an argument the other way, if someone can quote DEFINITIVELY from the ITCS anywhere where it says I must run the factory specifications for these items...

Again, just my opinion...



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX