IT Legal Coilover

[Wayne Schultz]

What exactly constitutes an IT legal Coilover?


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Wayne Schultz
1985 Pontiac Fiero 2M6
Go F.A.R.(T.)
Go Fiero American Racing (Team)

[racer_tim]

Wayne, the shock / strut can't be "threaded". The lower spring perch can't be part of the shock/strut. It must be a seperate unit.

That's the intent of the rule, but I've heard that some have purchased "threaded" shocks/struts and then have them machined so that the threads are gone.




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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[Wayne Schultz]

I think I see what your saying. The lower spring perch can't be adjustable? (Cause my stock spring mounts to the lower perch of my stock strut.)
Or that any piece that adjusts the spring such as a spacer must not be part of the strut.

Yes, that must be it. I have re-read 5.b.3 "Spacers, including threaded units with adjustable spring seats, may be used with coil springs, provided the spacers are not permanently attached to the shock/strut housing.

[racer_tim]

Yepper, that's the wording.

Tim

[Geo]

That's part of the wording.

You cannot use coilovers with threaded damper bodies.

You cannot use coilovers with threaded sleeves permanently attached to the damper.

** See Ground Control's coilover kits for a sample of what is legal.

You can use threaded body dampers, but not as coilovers, such as with a torsion bar suspension. Now, that may seem crazy, but if you read the rules closely, it bans threaded body coilovers and coilovers with permanently attached sleeves. It says nothing about threaded body dampers alone.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[x-ring]

Wait a minute. What about If It Doesn't Say You Can...

Not that I much give a damn, I have a Datsun Z and thus no torsion bars, but this subject is confusing to me.

Ty

[Geo]

Originally posted by x-ring:
Wait a minute. What about If It Doesn't Say You Can...

Don't forget, if it says you can, you bloody well can.

"Shock absorbers may be replaced....."

It goes on to describe the limitations. One of them is threaded body coilovers. However.... if you aren't running coilovers, this doesn't apply.



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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[x-ring]

OK, now I understand the distinction.

Thanks george.

Ty

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by x-ring:
OK, now I understand the distinction.

Thanks george.

Ty

How about we do away with this bloody rule as well, and eliminate all the confusion and extra wording?!! I mean really... the intent of the rule originally was to ban the use of expensive racing shocks, which typically come with threaded bodies...

HOWEVER, we then go on to allow you to effectively ADD threads to the shock body for use with coil-over springs! SO, those with the means go out and buy the "expensive" (more on that in a second) shocks, machine the threads off, then ADD threads back on! Yah... THAT makes sense...

As for expense... Nowadays... quality shocks are EVERYWHERE, and they aren't the overwhelming expense they use to be (well, I suppose Penskes might cost a bit still...), especially if you race a modern Honda, Acura, or any number of other cars, where the aftermarket supports then. There are lots of options...

Another example of a rule that, in my opinion, has outlasted it's usefullness and now ADDs to the expense of racing, rather than the oposite, which was it's original purpose...

(everyone have their pencils out??? "Dear CB..." )



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Geo]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
How about we do away with this bloody rule as well...

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Another example of a rule that, in my opinion, has outlasted it's usefullness and now ADDs to the expense of racing, rather than the oposite, which was it's original purpose...

I personally couldn't agree more. I understand why the original rule was written. Does it make sense? Not anymore. Today you can get a $6k set of Koni 2817 struts that are 100% IT legal. The rule is limiting nothing.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[924Guy]

Darin, HOW DARE YOU try to confuse a perfectly good religous debate like this by injecting common sense and logic!!! REALLY!!!



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Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by 924Guy:
Darin, HOW DARE YOU try to confuse a perfectly good religous debate like this by injecting common sense and logic!!! REALLY!!!

...You know me... always typing before I think!

(Write, WRIte, WRITE!!)



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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[MK]

Just could not help it....

*As for expense... Nowadays... (REMOTE RESERVOIR) shocks are EVERYWHERE, and they aren't the overwhelming expense they use to be.....

*SO, those with the means go out and buy the "expensive"(more on that in a second) (RR)shocks, (PAY MORE FOR ELIMINATING THE RR)Yah... THAT makes sense...

*I personally couldn't agree more. I understand why the original rule was written. Does it make sense? Not anymore. Today you can get a $6k set of Koni 2817 struts that are 100% IT legal(AND MANY HIGH QUALITY RR SHOCKS WAY FOR UNDER $6K). The rule is limiting nothing.

Just having fun. Don't go ballistic.

Round here in the Late Model circuit they let you run any shock you want as long as it costs under $125ea. The only true way of containing costs with the rules. Anyone want to start writing that letter?

BTW-even with those types of rules, a competitive LM(entry level class)will cost you $40K+

[racer_tim]

I HATE it when that happens.

Tim

Originally posted by Banzai240:
...You know me... always typing before I think!

(Write, WRIte, WRITE!!)

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by MK:
Just could not help it....

*As for expense... Nowadays... (REMOTE RESERVOIR) ... Just having fun. Don't go ballistic.

Always up for a good time. This is a bit of a leap, however... Big difference between the idea of allowing threads on shock bodies (when the rules allow you to ADD threads to the body of a shock, effectively), and allowing a completely different shock design altogether. Kind of like the leap someone made on another post going from allowing larger rim diameters to allowing big brakes, flares, etc...


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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Auburn, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[Geo]

Matt,

Personally the problem I have with allowing RR dampers is the fact that they open the high end of expense to huge levels. I know of a 928 racer who has a $16k set of dampers. That's more than most IT cars cost by a damned sight.

But you are correct, there are RR dampers available today for pretty "reasonable" prices. But again, the problem is the top end of the market IMHO.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Tyson]

Originally posted by Geo:
But again, the problem is the top end of the market IMHO.

why is it really a problem? not the RR issue, but just having expensive parts available? is it really that much of an unfair advantage that one can spend so much money over others who cant or dont, over driver skill and attention to preparation?

if you get blown by a racer who has put so much more money into his suspension, are you going to feel different, than if you get blown by a racer who spent much less money into his suspension? basically what im asking, does having an expensive suspension automatically take away credit from the driver?

i know theres plenty of ways to spend money on (overly) preparing a car, and in many ways spending that much money on a built engine or tranny the differences can be huge, but for sedan racing, in 20-30min race, is a competent (lets just say competent meaning current top class IT legal suspension) going to be that much less than the real expensive units?

[Geo]

In the right hands, the right parts can certainly make a difference.

But, that's neither here nor there. IT is supposed to be relatively inexpensive racing. RR dampers don't fit that role. I'm sure we could argue about what does and what doesn't fit.

I'd like to turn the question around....

Does anybody really need RR dampers to have fun in IT?


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

LOL, with no garrantee of competiveness it will will always be he with the most, latest, greatest, newest, ect... 50k bimmers, nowdays I could care less if a guy with 80k in his car beats my 6k (if I sold it) P.O.S. His pictures will show my car behind his and anyone he shows them to will think he's a moron.

[MK]

George,

If we truly wish to shut the door on expensive equipment, why not fixed dollar limits? Most of the companies that make RR shocks will make you non-RR shocks also. They usually cost the same or a little more, and the reps say, "That's kinda dumb isn't it?" when you ask.(I've gotten quotes from three companies, I found a set for $1600 w/RR!) I wonder if those 16K shocks you saw are available at 10K(or 16K) without reservoirs.

I'd like the non-attached threaded sleeve requirement(and rim dia. rule) gone too, but based purely on common sense and not because they are cost containment rules that don't work.

BTW-It's all relative, correct? What one thinks is expensive, another may think as relatively cheap. $2400 DA Konis or ADSs are expensive compared to $400 Bilsteins. Plus it depends on what is available for your particular car. Some cars have been raced longer(or are more popular) and the parts are now relatively "cheap". I'm sure there's lots of guys out there that think spending $2000 on IT shocks is ridiculous. But, if you really don't have a choice but to spend $2400 on shocks(if only because they are custom made), and you can get RR shocks for about that or less, does the RR rule make "sense" in that instance?

I know a dollar limit will just NEVER happen, but IMO it's the only way to really contain costs in this particular area.

Anyone know the price on TC Kline's new custom Koni/Vogtland suspension system for the E36? IT legal. My bet is around $4500+.

Yes it's supposed to be fun, but it seems there's always a natural progression towards the ridiculous. My step-father would call the super high-end BMWs "obscene". I would agree.