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    Actually Jake my criticism was for the 45% on the...

    Actually Jake my criticism was for the 45% on the ITB Civic DX. The car that was "supposed" to have been fairly processed but came out mysteriously 130lbs too heavy.

    Now I know how that happened,...
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    Real quick, and please don't let this derail the...

    Real quick, and please don't let this derail the overall discussion here...

    The ITB Civic/CRX Si is a 35% car. If the ITAC were classing that car tomorrow it'd be done at 35%. The reason for this...
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    The main issue here, REGARDLESS of who says what...

    The main issue here, REGARDLESS of who says what and where, is that something that was fine for 5ish years suddenly was unfine late last year. Further, nobody has produced a better idea OR proven why...
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    As I've said elsewhere and will continue to say,...

    As I've said elsewhere and will continue to say, IT ain't dead yet.
    Its fine right now. Much improved over the last few years. Some overdogs have been fixed and some cars that weren't being raced...
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    Harry will be greatly missed. He was one of the...

    Harry will be greatly missed. He was one of the good guys.
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    I hate to do this, because it will tangent it...

    I hate to do this, because it will tangent it even more. But...

    I've seen, with mine own eyes, dynojet dyno graphs for a fully built and legal CRX and a fully built and legal 1.6 Miata. Same...
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    Which part?

    Which part?
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    We actually have a whole bunch of agreement here,...

    We actually have a whole bunch of agreement here, its just hard to realize it.
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    After brain chewing on this for a while, I'd like...

    After brain chewing on this for a while, I'd like to suggest just completely scrapping the "-50 for Bad suspension" from the process.

    Why?
    1. What is "bad" anyway? It just begs for even more...
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    I do. But first I need to have some discussions...

    I do.
    But first I need to have some discussions with some current members (you, Kirk? Jake?) about my work hours and if we think they could be an issue.

    I don't want to get on the committee and...
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    Great. Do it. :smilie_pokal:

    Great.
    Do it.
    :smilie_pokal:
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    I may do it later, but right now frankly I'm...

    I may do it later, but right now frankly I'm tired of doing what seems to be a windmill chasing exercise.

    But I will say this one more time... If the math doesn't work or gives you a wonky number...
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    Andy, posting for Blake, who says your earlier...

    Andy, posting for Blake, who says your earlier Porsche 914 numbers are wrong.

    He says that the 1.7L 914 is in ITC at 2080 and the 2.0L is in B at 2260. I haven't double checked that.

    As far...
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    Well, I actually used it because its a 12v MPFI...

    Well, I actually used it because its a 12v MPFI motor.
    But yeah, it can get 35%. Thats the outer limits, but its been done.

    25% is reasonable on the VW 8v motors.
    35% is reasonable on the 16v...
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    116x1.35x17=2660lbs The Miata gets the 35%...

    116x1.35x17=2660lbs

    The Miata gets the 35% for the same reasons the Hondas do.
    Really... Not that hard.

    If you want to put the Miata in ITB at 2660lbs... Go right ahead.
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    I understand what you are saying now Andy. ...

    I understand what you are saying now Andy.

    And I'll go back to my original point of "just fix it then."

    If the TQ adder wasn't used... Use it. There is certainly justification for that with...
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    Which is why I just added it to the Accord above....

    Which is why I just added it to the Accord above.
    I'm not following you Andy. Whats YOUR point.

    I simply took Kirk's post and applied it to some cars. If you are telling me my math is wrong,...
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    Quoted from page 14 for reference.

    Quoted from page 14 for reference.
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    Just for giggles and since it just won the ARRC,...

    Just for giggles and since it just won the ARRC, lets run an Accord LXi:

    110x1.35x17=2525
    -50 (fwd)
    +50 (tq)
    +50 (A Arms)
    That gives us 2575lbs. Actually darned close to its current 2550...
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    Well, Kirk posted that there IS an adder for TQ...

    Well, Kirk posted that there IS an adder for TQ and that the process assumes struts.
    And if the TQ adder is not there, it needs to be.

    So... you are saying that struts are -50 and A Arms are...
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    Bad math. Read Kirks post on the process more...

    Bad math. Read Kirks post on the process more closely.
    The current approach figures strut suspension as the default, so there is no -50 on the VW for that. Its also a large powerplant (in ITB terms)...
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    It doesn't even appear that the A2 Golf is...

    It doesn't even appear that the A2 Golf is accurate:
    105x1.25x17=2231
    -50 (fwd)
    +50 (tq)
    = A process weight of 2230. Current spec is 2280 so even it is 50lbs overweight.

    As far as losing...
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    Its a part of being transparent and consistent....

    Its a part of being transparent and consistent.
    If I have 100lbs of ballast in my car then a calculator should easily explain why.
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    OK Guys. Because some of you are baffled as to...

    OK Guys.
    Because some of you are baffled as to why I seem to be so torqued about this, let me do a quick and simple exercise...

    ITB A3 Golf
    115x1.25x17=2444
    -50 (fwd)
    +50 (torque)
    Gives a...
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    The multiplier is where subjectivity MUST occur. ...

    The multiplier is where subjectivity MUST occur. There simply is no way around it.
    Thats what committees are for... Ideally the group pools resources to reach a valid conclusion. Unideally it gets...
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