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Hi, Everyone,
I am new to this forum and to Road Racing. I am building an ITA Civic and am trying to mount a seat to it right now. I have used the search function here and see that a few people are saying that you are allowed to remove the factory seat mounting humps that are spot welded to the floor pan. Reading the rules I am struggling to find any kind of rule that gives you that allowance. Can anyone give me the specific rule of where that allowance is for IT?
You can only UN-BOLT brackets/mounts for allowable items (i.e. seats, seat belts, headliners, etc.), but you can't cut them to remove them. But, if a bracket were to be in the way or a safety-hazard, it can be 'RE-SHAPED' using a hammer (just don't knock it off). So could the humps be 'RE-SHAPED' too, why not??
I've removed them for each of the IT builds I've done if they get in the way of the seat mounting.
And, unrelated, to the idea that only brackets that are bolted in can be removed (versus brackets that are welded in): find that in the rules for me. It simply states something to the effect of 'brackets can be removed' and in no way specifies that that is limited to those bolted on. One can get into debates about the definition of "bracket", but not really on the method of attachment.
Thus yes, Kirk, you can remove all those welded-in rear seat brackets. I do.
GA
What is the rule that allows the removal of it though?Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Amy
9.1.3.D.9.e, "Front passenger seat, rear seat back, rear seat bottom cushion(s), sun visors, seat belts and their attaching hardware and bracketry may be removed."
No specifications that it's limited to only bolted-in parts.
"If it says you can, then you bloody well can!" - George Roffe, "The Roffe Corollary"
GA
That rul specifies which seats brackets you can remove and it doesn't say anything about the drivers seat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Amy
Ok, then find the rule that allows removal of the driver's seat and you probably have it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ITACivic
Or run the humps if it bothers you. I don't.
GA
Here ya go:
9.1.3.D.9.e, "The driver’s seat (only) shall be replaced with a one-piece bucket-type race seat. Factory seat tracks/brackets may be modified, reinforced, and/or removed to facilitate replacement mountings provided they perform no other function. All other seats may be removed."
My emphasis.
I expect entertaining arguments that these items in question aren't "brackets"; well, they are. Anything used to attach and/or support the seat to the car is a "seat bracket"; those sheet metal humps on the floor serve no purpose other than to support/mount the seat. Thus, they are brackets and are legal to remove.
GA
That is why I am asking for a rule for it. I would like to remove it because it would make mounting the seat a lot easier and I have seen some on here say that you can do it. I just don't see a rule where it allows you to and if people are doing it then there must be a rule that some are reading that allows it. I am just not seeing that rule and would like some guidance on which rule it is that people are reading that allows it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Amy
no problem...rip them out. Read 9 a for driver; 9 e for pass.
Read up one message.Quote:
Originally Posted by ITACivic
If you're concerned about that then sit tight: I expect dissenting arguments shortly (it's a holiday, traffic here is low today...)
GA
To me the way that rule is written removing the humps is a grey area. Has anyone ever gotten a clarification from the ITAC/CRB on this rule?Quote:
Originally Posted by joeg
Nope. If you send an email to the Technical Department you'll get an answer, but that answer is unofficial and does not carry weight in a protest or appeal process.Quote:
Originally Posted by ITACivic
But for only $300 (or 4 easy payments - in advance - of $75) you can get your own official clarification. See GCR 8.1.4.
Then again, the free advice you're getting here is worth far less than you're paying for it... ;)
GA
brackets, in terms of racing, are better to be considered as an allowance or a handicap between predicted elapsed time between two cars over a 1/4 mile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Amy
if you remove those brackets, you then have just good old head to head racing.
cut them, beat them down or dril out the spot welds and save them for when someone tells you that you have to have them. just don't expect a protest from me if you don't have them.
as Greg noted, some rules really do say that you can do something...
I typically represent the most militant conservative views re: rules allowances and I cut all of the spot-welded seat brackets out of my driver's side.
I'm not sure what a "hump" is, exactly, but to ME the distinction is between a bit that's welded to the tub for the purpose of mounting the seat ("bracket" etc., per the rule Greg noted) and the tub itself. I'd stop short of changing the shape of the tunnel, floor, sills, etc. within the allowances of that rule.
Intersesting however - I did NOT push to that extent on the passenger side. In hindsight, it's because i didn't really have a compelling reason (fitment of the seat) to worry about those brackets, but they could come out too. Heck - looking at the build pics now, I'm reminded that I actually REPLACED the main passenger side seat bracket. Funny how we think about things sometimes.
http://www.it2.evaluand.com/gti/build4.php
K
The humps not only are mounts for the seats, but also STRENGTHEN the floor pan & are part of the uni-body. Therefore they serve a dual purpose & removal is (IMHO) against the GCR. To be safe, check with your local Tech Inspector. Even though the GCR is a national rule-set, it appears that every region interprets the grey areas different.
I think the "hump" in this case (EF Civic, CRX)is the stamped, spot welded forward driver's seat mount. it's shaped like a "hump" and runs from door sill to tunnel. it's removable per all of the above.
It is nice to see that the debate still continues about the removal of brackets.....among other things--- "Things that don't change have the tendency to remain the same" . I go back to a request I submitted to the IT Advisory Board a in 2009, to reinstate the verbage under "Intent"..... "Other than those specifically allowed by these rules, no component or part normally found on a stock example of a given vehicle may be disabled, altered, or removed for the purpose of obtaining any competitive advantage"..... I would imagine that 50% plus of the debates aired in this site, would be eliminated. What do you think? Is removing a bracket, welded or bolted, gaining you any competitive advantage? Is removing a horn, windshield washer resevoir, light bulbs or some wiring gaining you a competitive advantage? I think that most of the competitors understand the difference. What do you think?
David Ellis-Brown
On what hand i agree with you but on the other there is always going to be someone that will try to push the "envelope" so to speak.
But i do feel that when that kind of stretching of the rules occurs , especially when it results in a real or perceived advantage that it needs to be slapped down hard!
And that has always been the issue..... If you believe that a competitor is violating the rules and gaining a competitive advantage.... then it is our "responsibility" to stop it, file a protest, let the stewards do their job, and let the consequences send the message. My opinion.
David Ellis-Brown