So, you BMW guys, I know the 325 and 318 and 2002 are viable race cars, but how does the 320 stack up?
Competative in class? Good handeling? parts available? ANY feedback would be appreciated.
Printable View
So, you BMW guys, I know the 325 and 318 and 2002 are viable race cars, but how does the 320 stack up?
Competative in class? Good handeling? parts available? ANY feedback would be appreciated.
318 viable, yes. 2002 no chance, with any real competition. 320, also no chance. Unless mid-pack with a well prepped car is viable to you.
In summary:
323 (E46): Heavy, not likely very fast in ITS, but we'll see what Irish Mike can do.
325 (E36): Still good in ITS with the SIR, underdog in ITR
325 (E30): Fair in ITS
318 (E36): So far, rare in ITA, but don't count on it up front
318is (E30): Same as above
325e (E30): Decent ITA car, at least in Florida
2002tii: Pitiful ITA car, might be decent if moved to ITB
318 (E30): Decent ITB car
320 (E21): Poor ITB car with 2.0L engine, even worse with 1.8L
2002: Poor ITB car
1600: ITC, never seen one run.
See the megasquirt topic for more detail on the 320.
My first race car was an E30 318. It was a very good ITB car at the time and a regular podium finisher. There are lots of E30 parts and knowledge to build a great car. The class (all classes) is faster now but I still think it could be competitive. Although the E30 shares essentially the same motor with the 2002 & 320, the E30 318 brings better fuel injection, chippable ECU, and better suspension. The 2002 could still be a front runner in ITB but would require a perfect, no money spared preparation.
There are few E36 318i/is/ti running in ITA, but I think they could be competitive. They will be down on HP to the Acura/Honda/Nissan but may still do well.
Just my thoughts and experience.
..and don't forget the E36/7 (Z3 1.9) in ITA - down on power and a bit heavy.. Currently a mid-packer (but we're working on it)..Quote:
In summary:
323 (E46): Heavy, not likely very fast in ITS, but we'll see what Irish Mike can do.
325 (E36): Still good in ITS with the SIR, underdog in ITR
325 (E30): Fair in ITS
318 (E36): So far, rare in ITA, but don't count on it up front
318is (E30): Same as above
325e (E30): Decent ITA car, at least in Florida
2002tii: Pitiful ITA car, might be decent if moved to ITB
318 (E30): Decent ITB car
320 (E21): Poor ITB car with 2.0L engine, even worse with 1.8L
2002: Poor ITB car
1600: ITC, never seen one run.
[/b]
When I first started hanging around SCCA, there were a few ITC 1600s around.. They're pretty rare in these parts in general, so I wouldn't expect to see any running on the track any more.. 2002s were doing quite well in the mid-Atlantic, at least up until a couple of years ago..
My friend Kevin still holds the lap record at Willow Springs for ITB in a ........Quote:
318 viable, yes. 2002 no chance, with any real competition. 320, also no chance. Unless mid-pack with a well prepped car is viable to you.
In summary:
323 (E46): Heavy, not likely very fast in ITS, but we'll see what Irish Mike can do.
325 (E36): Still good in ITS with the SIR, underdog in ITR
325 (E30): Fair in ITS
318 (E36): So far, rare in ITA, but don't count on it up front
318is (E30): Same as above
325e (E30): Decent ITA car, at least in Florida
2002tii: Pitiful ITA car, might be decent if moved to ITB
318 (E30): Decent ITB car
320 (E21): Poor ITB car with 2.0L engine, even worse with 1.8L
2002: Poor ITB car
1600: ITC, never seen one run.
See the megasquirt topic for more detail on the 320.
[/b]
2002, the same car that I drove last May for my drivers school. He used to have people tell him to put some money into the car beside the motor :lol: He told me the motor wasn't that special, it was all about the driver. Speaking of ITB maybe we can have all the 4-pot BMW's moved down to ITB.
James
Hi,
The 320i has been great for me. I have been very competive at all the race's I have been. I am running an 82 with the 1.8. I can run with the Volvo's VW's no prob. The car handles great and has been very relible. Im only a couple of tenths off the track record at my home track that was set by a volvo. I ran at Watkins Glen and had the second fast lap time of the day in ITB and there were 59 cars on the track. ITA,ITB,ITC. Plenty of Volvos BMWs VW's. The engine doesnt have the guts but I am still running with stock bore, no balance 100,000 mi engine. I think people dont give the 320 enough credit. If you decide to build It I can give you some info on what I did to my car, Just let me know. My buddy has a web site that has video of him and I racing on his movie page. He has a well prepaired porsche 924. Check it out Vaughanscott.com
Hope you build one,
Douglas
Hey fast frog, What rear end gear are you using?
I am running a 4.44 gear from jim blanton. with 225/45/13 tires
My tips for E21 setup:
Clean and remove all under coating, the E21 is heavy and needs all the help it can get in the weight area
Convert to coil overs using shortened front strut tubes in front.
I used 500 lb front and 500 or 600 lb rear spring depending on the track. Tight tracks I used 600 lbs.
Contact Ireland Engineering or Bilstein directly and have them build a set of strut inserts and rear shocks for the above spring rates.
They will sell you the inserts from the VWs for the front and the Sport housing for the rear. Don't waist your time with the off the shelf stuff because it will not hold up and the Bilsteins inserts are only about $50 higher then the standard sports.
Front camber plates running about 3 to 3.5 degrees negative camber.
Replace all bushings in delrin. The ones in the front are the big one.
No rear anti sway bar
Welded Diff or a custom LSD. I have a 40% LSD with 4.10 and a welded 3.91. I would think about a 4.27 for really tight tracks. I have a 77 with the 4 speed. The 80 to 83s have a over drive 5 speed so you can go up to 4.44. With the 4 speed, I mainly used 3 and 4th for most tracks. 2nd was always a little to low except for the tightest corners.
In the end I used 225/45/13 on 13X6 rims.
After doing some research I found that by going to higher spring rates and the lower sway bar size it allow the tires to drop down in the corners and I would not spin the inside tire.
Things to keep you eye on:
Replace the front control arms about every 12 to 15 race weekends and use BMW Original or
Replace the wheel bears front and rear about every 12 to 15 race weekends
I am in the process of converting my ITB 320 over to F Production.
I read the addtional responces...does this mean that a 325 is is a good or bad combination for I T racing?
Which 325 are you asking about? The E30 is a decent choice but as has been stated, it is probably just decent. The E36 in ITS is still a front runner and in ITR it should be a front runner. To say it's an underdog is a bit premature - it will have tons of power and be one of the lightest cars.Quote:
I read the addtional responces...does this mean that a 325 is is a good or bad combination for I T racing? [/b]
I have always wondered about the 2002 in ITB. I love the cars but common perception is that they are outclassed - yet in poskets (like the MARRS series), there are tons of them and they run up front.
How much power can a 2002 put to the ground in IT-legal trim?
I saw a 1988 325 is for sale which would be a "starter" car...if this is a viable choice I don't know how to determine an E 30 from an E 36...any heads up would be appreciated..
An '88 would definetly be an e-30. The e-30 looks like the tradional BMW box while the e-36 has a larger look to it with fully integrated bumpers, larger windshield posts, and a more steeply raked windshield. The e-30 series ran untill '92 or so, e-36's ran untill '99. Go for it, it's a good base to start from, you'll know what's been done and what's yet to be completed.Quote:
I saw a 1988 325 is for sale which would be a "starter" car...if this is a viable choice I don't know how to determine an E 30 from an E 36...any heads up would be appreciated..
[/b]
James
Andy,Quote:
Which 325 are you asking about? The E30 is a decent choice but as has been stated, it is probably just decent. The E36 in ITS is still a front runner and in ITR it should be a front runner. To say it's an underdog is a bit premature - it will have tons of power and be one of the lightest cars.
I have always wondered about the 2002 in ITB. I love the cars but common perception is that they are outclassed - yet in poskets (like the MARRS series), there are tons of them and they run up front.
How much power can a 2002 put to the ground in IT-legal trim?
[/b]
Two things are conspiring to kill 2002 racing. Collectability, when BMW makes an '02 from scratch over 30 years after production has stopped, it's a collectable car. Secondly is the tin-worm eating all the good donner chassis and replacement pannels. Unless they're garage queens, I doubt there's an original daily driver North of the Mason-Dixon line or East of the Rockies.
James
It may be premature to say the E36 is an underdog in ITR, granted we won't know for sure until some of the other possibilities are fully developed. But here's some acceleration data to show my point. This graph shows a virtual drag race between six ITR cars. The data comes from actual vehicle parameters and real dyno results (scaled to ITAC estimates). I won't divulge which car is which, other than the E36 325i/is as the slowest.Quote:
Which 325 are you asking about? The E30 is a decent choice but as has been stated, it is probably just decent. The E36 in ITS is still a front runner and in ITR it should be a front runner. To say it's an underdog is a bit premature - it will have tons of power and be one of the lightest cars.
I have always wondered about the 2002 in ITB. I love the cars but common perception is that they are outclassed - yet in poskets (like the MARRS series), there are tons of them and they run up front.
How much power can a 2002 put to the ground in IT-legal trim?
[/b]
To keep this relevant to the 320 crowd, I'll throw in a diff ratio model. This plot shows the relative acceleration time at Road Atlanta for a later 320i with 100hp at the wheels. Lower time (vertical axis), indicates the better the diff ratio (horizontal axis) for that track.
As for the 2002 engine, my '77 320 had 130hp at the crank with what was supposed to be a professional build. I suspect you could do slightly better, but then the 2002 has to use a carburetor. Don't forget the suspension is archaic in those cars. The 320 and 2002 were good ITB cars before IT became so competitive. With the new models in recent years, they're outdated, and outclassed.
Cool stuff but until I see the data you are using, I can hardly validate your claims. Besides, if we used drag race - or rolling drag races as the end-all, the Miata in ITA would never win a race. I have to keep from getting run over at every start...
Some of the more powerful cars in ITR are 500 lbs heavier than the E36 325. FIVE HUNDRED. On the same tires with similar brakes...just less hp.
Looks fast enough to me... :114:Quote:
323 (E46): Heavy, not likely very fast in ITS, but we'll see what Irish Mike can do.
[/b]
http://www.bildon.com/racing/races/R.../WGI_race4.jpg
I checked the eastern regional web site and saw the ITB results...looks like a Volvo 142 (71-73) is THE car but there were MANY BMW 2002's in the field but no 320's...any feedback as to why, if the 2002 is WORSE then then 320 for ITB...thanks