Tire failure. Again

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10-01-2013, 09:30 AM
backformore

Tire failure. Again

You may recall a few years ago I had tire delaminate on my SSC 2000 Civic Si which led to a vibration. It was an old Hankook and I had some possible caliper issues so I attributed it to those factors.

Fast forward to last Sunday. The car is now IT prepped, 350 lbs lighter, 800frt/1000Rr springs on Koni race yellows, -3.25 frt/-2.0 rear camber. Tires are 2 year old Toyo RA1s at 42psi hot,

Left front tire did exactly the same as previous failure. After turn 7 at Rd Atl I picked up the vibration. Inspection revealed deformed tread and steel fibers pushing through the inner sidewall.

Has anyone seen this before? Since I've seen it twice I'm a little concerned.

Thanks for any insight.

Rory
10-01-2013, 10:56 AM
joeg

not on a Hankook; saw one a couple weeks ago on a BFG tire.
10-01-2013, 11:21 AM
Terry Hanushek

Joe

Quote:

not on a Hankook; saw one a couple weeks ago on a BFG tire.

From above: Tires are 2 year old Toyo RA1s at 42psi hot,

T
10-01-2013, 11:39 AM
Chip42

One of our MR2s had a similar failure at Roebling back in July - Hankook DOTR (C71?). it happens - banging curbs and stuff makes it more likely - it's often the result of a trauma to the tire that shows a long time later. your hot pressures seemed a little high, that isn't going to help it either. too-low pressures would have different but similarly bad failure modes.
10-01-2013, 11:52 AM
backformore

Toyo recommends hi 30 to low 40 hot pressures. My old data shows we ran 37-38 on the Miatas. I figured with the high loads of front tires on the Civic they would like even more on the high side.

Any thoughts? Anyone running RA1 on Honda with different numbers?

Didn't have opportunity to get tire temps. Really wish I had now.
10-01-2013, 12:41 PM
mossaidis

on my 2300 lbs Civic EG, I would run toyo's between 37-39 hot. That was back in 2006-09.
10-01-2013, 12:44 PM
madrabbit15

42lbs Hot "might" be okay on the front of a FWD car, but it certainly would not be anywhere close to fast or optimal. I wouldn't trust it. You don't want to see any more than 37-38 lbs hot on any tire, toyo, kumho, hoosier. Some of the manufacturers are more forgiving than others so you might be able to get away with it but doesn't mean you should.
10-01-2013, 01:29 PM
Flyinglizard

42 is not out of range. Check for at least 1 in of clearance between the tie rod end /strut etc for rubs.
1in may seem like a lot but I now paint(chevy orange) the outer ends of my suspension.( to watch for rubs. )
10-01-2013, 01:30 PM
ShelbyRacer

Hankooks had tread separation instances when they were run counter-recommended-rotation.

Had the Toyos ever experienced extreme cold during their life (As in less than 15*F)?
10-01-2013, 03:57 PM
mossaidis

The thread also reminded me that I had a toyo seperate from the bead once. Front left at Limerock going down the straight away after a day of dual driving. It was 1 of 20 Toyos where I didn't have any issues with them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by madrabbit15

42lbs Hot "might" be okay on the front of a FWD car, but it certainly would not be anywhere close to fast or optimal. I wouldn't trust it. You don't want to see any more than 37-38 lbs hot on any tire, toyo, kumho, hoosier. Some of the manufacturers are more forgiving than others so you might be able to get away with it but doesn't mean you should.

My fastest times on my FWD Honda Civic with a 225/45R15 at 2290 lbs is 40 lbs hot with Hoosiers. You might not trust it, but the timing clock has different intentions and my placement says otherwise. :) Much about pressures has also to do with car setup as well.
10-01-2013, 05:32 PM
Simon T.

Were you running Chin?
10-01-2013, 06:24 PM
backformore

I sure was Simon. Black Civic Si in the blue group when I was not instructing. Seems like I remember you name on the entry list. I assume you were there too?

A little further investigation also reveals that the tires were on the overinflated side, although still seemingly withing Toyos advised values. Also, there was some scuffing on the inner sidewall that reminded me I ALMOST went over the back of the curbing at turn 10A earlier in the weekend, which, if you are familiar with it, is a BIG drop off. So it's possible that the combination led to the failure.

The biggest curiosity is that I had the same failure with a different tire when the car was configured completely differently. Things that make you go Hmmmmm.
10-01-2013, 06:31 PM
backformore

2 Attachment(s)

Trying to post pics of failed tire.
10-01-2013, 08:46 PM
MSPERBER

Lots of camber for a car easy on tire wear, do tire temps you may not need that much up front, and what were your cold temps when u first went out. It appears like a tire failure from a combination of possible multiple items, pressure, camber, curb abuse, and or just a bad tire. Kumho on my front driver requires higher than the other brands cold temps. Just stuff to consider.
10-01-2013, 09:04 PM
adamjabaay

had this happen twice this year. Luckily while running old tires instructing at hpde events

both drivers front...both old mid-year 2009 r6's. Different tracks (mid ohio and gingerman)

both happened end-of- session.. Both were SUCH INTENSE VIBRATIONS. Huge bubbles, look like that pic
10-02-2013, 05:41 PM
Matt Rowe

I've had 2 Hoosiers do something identical this season. Both tires were R6's bought last year. My suspicion is it is due to a combination of high tire temps and damage from curbs as both times the failure was preceded by a slightly different line through a section of curbing.

Either that or my tires were just jealous of those fancy F1 tires.
10-02-2013, 09:16 PM
downingracing

I had a Hankook come apart a few weeks ago - first time ever to have a Hankook come apart in over 10 years of running their tire. The tire was produced last season (2012) andi have three others from that date. I'm concerned about running the other three at this point,,, I
L be running this weekend and wil. Report back if I have any issues. ( this was on a 95 civic ex coupe in ITA)
10-13-2013, 11:19 AM
T Broring

Quote:

Originally Posted by backformore

You may recall a few years ago I had tire delaminate on my SSC 2000 Civic Si which led to a vibration.....

Fast forward to last Sunday..... Tires are 2 year old Toyo RA1s at 42psi hot, Left front tire did exactly the same as previous failure. After turn 7 at Rd Atl I picked up the vibration. Inspection revealed deformed tread and steel fibers pushing through the inner sidewall. Rory

Have seen wheel bearings that are failing cause vibrations due to the rotor leaning on the pad causing heat buildup. When cool the rotor may return to non-warped condition. Wheel bearing can also affect tire wear. I recommend checking the wheel bearing with pads retracted away from rotor (or removed) and if possible axle removed from outside hub. You will thrn be able to tell if the bearing have roughness or looseness.
10-13-2013, 10:03 PM
downingracing

Quote:

Originally Posted by downingracing

I had a Hankook come apart a few weeks ago - first time ever to have a Hankook come apart in over 10 years of running their tire. The tire was produced last season (2012) andi have three others from that date. I'm concerned about running the other three at this point,,, I
L be running this weekend and wil. Report back if I have any issues. ( this was on a 95 civic ex coupe in ITA)

It rained on and off all weekend, but I ran the dry tires 2 sessions. No issues. I do drive the car hard into turn 1 at Mid-Ohio and clip the inside curbing with that tire. Been doing it for years, but may need to rethink that method.
10-19-2013, 07:33 AM
adamjabaay

had another r6 lose a belt at vir tuesday... Another older one I was killing at a test day while I was instructing.

I'm betting it was just too old, and I was enjoying the curbs in turns 4 and 5 a bit too much, really