Platform to grow into ST

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01-17-2013, 06:05 PM
esuvee

Platform to grow into ST

How about the concept of a car you can grow with? I envy those who have been able to stay with a chassis from SS to IT to maybe prod. It seems like ST might be a good top rung of the ladder for a number of cars and budgets but very few are competitive on all the steps up that ladder.

Here's the idea: Somewhat competitive in IT or other similar class, engine option to be somewhat competitive in STL, engine option to eventually be somewhat competitive in STU. Should probably be very competitive in one of the three at least. For me it also must be RWD, I am done with FWD, part of why I didn't continue racing with the CRX.

Thoughts so far:

FC RX7, ITS -> 1.8L BP STL -> ?2.3 turbo STL?

- Not sure about the 2.3 but it seems the BP is likely to be as competitive with Honda in STL as any other decently architected DOCH 4 cyl. Wish it could be an FD chassis but there's no entry level class for that car.

Miata, IT/SM -> 1.8L BP STL -> ?2.3 turbo STL?

-Same as RX7

944, ITS/ITR/Spec944 -> ?1.8L VW/Audi? -> 2.5 turbo STL (doesn't seem competitive)

-No good < 2L options unless VW is legit? Seems like a lot of power to look for from the 2.5 turbo motor in the STU configuration. Also, pretty old already.

Solstice, ITS -> ?de-turbo'd LNF? or "Pontiac Vibe" 2ZZ (I think this is illegal) -> LNF w/turbo STU

-This one seems to require the most creative engine work. Not sure what Huffmaster has in the STU car but I can't believe it's just the stock turbo 2L LNF with more boost? For STL the only competitive < 2L 4 cyl from GM only comes with boost so the turbo would have to go and then find out what power it could make.

E30, IT/SpecE30 -> ?1.8L STL? -> 3.2L STU

-No idea how the 1.8 would work. Also, pretty old already.

E36, IT -> ?1.8L STL? -> 3.2L STU

-just meh on the E36. Had one once, didn't get along well.

Toyobaru twins, T? -> STL -> WRX motor STU

-Wow, this seems like the right answer but big $$$. Also, bad reports of subaru track reliability at big STU power levels and/or big Hoosier grip levels.

MR2, ITB -> 2ZZ STL -> ?? STU (there must be something)

-Seems fun but pretty old cars already (thinking first gen)

Fiero, ITA -> ?de-turbo'd LNF? or "Pontiac Vibe" 2ZZ (I think this is illegal) STL -> LNF w/turbo STU

-Same engine issues as solstice and it's getting old.

To complicate things for me, I work for GM and love my job and almost all of our new products. I don't love much prior to 2006 or so and we've never made a good NA <2L 4cyl. I feel like I can get away with anything except probably Toyota. Not like I'd get fired but it feels like it wouldn't be good for my career if I managed to start doing well with a Toyota. (and it's a racing crowd in my building so it's not like I could just keep my mouth shut about it). It's a fascinating class to me for some reason, seems to be just the extra stuff I was frustrated I couldn't do to the CRX. However, I know that it was 5 years of racing before I was ready to start moving past IT prep with that car.

Alex
01-17-2013, 06:39 PM
Greg Amy

Some things to keep in mind as you're planning/brainstorming:

- No turbos in STL. All turbos 3.2L and under are STU.

- You can choose to go either STx or Prod, but if you plan well you have the option of both. Some of the main differences:

- Tires. Prod uses slicks, STx uses DOT radials. However, DOT radials are legal in Prod, and frankly other than size and compound selection I'd wager (but have no experience to back that up) that the same-size and same-compound DOT radial is comparable in performance to a slick.

- Aero. STx allows rear wings and splitters, Prod does not. So the Prod chassis without this aero would fit in STx.

- Engine. Some prep differences, but Limited-Prep prod is philosophically close to STx. Different compression and cams, for example, but similar head prep (port-matching).

- Trans. Similar, not clear of the differences.

- Brakes. STx allows bigger brakes, Prod is generally stock stuff.

- Rollcages. Same...? STx allows unlimited points.

- Chassis prep. Damned close. Both allow plastic windows, STx only allows plastic hood and hatch/trunk.

- What else?

- GA
01-17-2013, 07:24 PM
Andy Bettencourt

99 Miata

Easy button. Same block and head for all 3 classes just at a different prep.

SM ----> ITS ----> STL

/thread :D

Or the sadist might try a crazy Quad-4 build for STU in an 88 Fiero. LOL
01-17-2013, 07:26 PM
esuvee

Interesting feedback. I haven't spend a ton of time with the prod rules since I just don't like the look and feel of the current crop of fast prod cars. However, if you get past the fact that they use the word "carburetor" about 1000 times in the first few paragraphs (which reinforces my prod stereotypes) you are correct that the prep levels can be remarkably similar.

I like the engine swap nature of STL relative to prod as it avoids 'recipe' cars a bit but that's very low on the list of important factors.

I am clear on the turbo only in STU bit, that's what complicates some of the STL options for GM, we put turbos on all of our good small engines.

Thanks,
Alex
01-18-2013, 05:04 PM
Matt93SE

Nissan 240SX ITA/ITS -->
Can run EP with the 2.4L, either SOHC or DOHC.
Can run STL w/ 2.0L SR20DE JDM swap (needs approval, but is well within reason.)
Could run STU with either 2.4L, or JDM 2.0L SR20DET Turbo (again, needs approval.)

The car used to do well in SS back when it was a new chassis, and there are still several running ITA and a few in ITS. Most have moved on to either GT3 or drift use. Very few in EP, and mine is the only one I've seen in STU. for that matter, My car is the only Nissan I've seen in STU, or hell, one of only three Nissans I've seen in SWDIV at all.

Big issue is Nissan Contingency suuuuuucks. you're on your own from Nissan, unless you race a newer Z or GTR. And the Z only really gets contingency in NASA because of the Spec Z class.
01-18-2013, 05:10 PM
Greg Amy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt93SE

Can run STL w/ 2.0L SR20DE JDM swap (needs approval, but is well within reason.)

I don't think you need approval for the JDM SR20DE; all the aprts are basically the same as the US-market engine, only difference is cams and compression, both of which are complaint to STL specs.

What you *do* want to request approval for is the SR20VE, or if you think you can get down to weight the SR16VE.

- GA
01-19-2013, 04:41 PM
Z3_GoCar

No good options from BMW. To get to the Honda power levels requires too much lift and bore:

http://www.metricmechanic.com/produc...44-engine-kit/

The stock lift is already 0.41" to make 135-138hp adding another 0.015" to the lift, even with masive duration, won't get to 180hp that you'd get out of a warmed up Honda.
01-20-2013, 12:13 PM
Matt93SE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Amy

I don't think you need approval for the JDM SR20DE; all the aprts are basically the same as the US-market engine, only difference is cams and compression, both of which are complaint to STL specs.

What you *do* want to request approval for is the SR20VE, or if you think you can get down to weight the SR16VE.

- GA

To run a FWD car, not a problem. To run it in RWD requires use of a RWD head. They are quite different than the FWD version, including distributor location and intake manifold configuration.
I would think that's easy enough to just say "Yup, it's an SR20. Let me run it." But I would hate to get caught with your pants down by doing the swap and THEN finding out someone has a problem with it. (I guaran-damn-tee you Brian Laughlin would protest it....)
01-20-2013, 12:42 PM
Greg Amy

Ah, didn't know that. You have ZERO trouble getting it approved...
01-20-2013, 11:53 PM
Chip42

if you are a GM guy I'd go with the solstice/sky.

run a used SS/T car in T then ITS or straight to ITS. for STL drop the turbo motor in without the turbo, then add it back and go STU.

from GM, THAT IS THE CHASSIS for IT/ST, and a really good option for either. it's heavy, too, so getting it into STL at ~2700 lbs isn't such a heart breaker. doo eeet

only hitch is it was a short run car and I have no idea what their continued support for it or the engine internals will be, and that could be a problem.. something tells me you could find that given your employer. then again, they might prefer that the product you race not be of one of the marques they killed...
01-21-2013, 12:47 AM
esuvee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chip42

if you are a GM guy I'd go with the solstice/sky.

run a used SS/T car in T then ITS or straight to ITS. for STL drop the turbo motor in without the turbo, then add it back and go STU.

from GM, THAT IS THE CHASSIS for IT/ST, and a really good option for either. it's heavy, too, so getting it into STL at ~2700 lbs isn't such a heart breaker. doo eeet

only hitch is it was a short run car and I have no idea what their continued support for it or the engine internals will be, and that could be a problem.. something tells me you could find that given your employer. then again, they might prefer that the product you race not be of one of the marques they killed...

Yeah, that makes sense. It was the program I worked on when it was still in production so I'm very familiar with it and quite fond of it. Folks at work would love the idea. However, because it was my program I am also just a tiny bit 'ho-hum' about it, something alluring about the MR2 or 944 I've always thought about owning or the RX7 I loved owning so much. Regardless, I've already been shopping for one on and off for a few years now :)

Alex
01-21-2013, 01:39 PM
prodogdriver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chip42

if you are a GM guy I'd go with the solstice/sky.

run a used SS/T car in T then ITS or straight to ITS. for STL drop the turbo motor in without the turbo, then add it back and go STU.

from GM, THAT IS THE CHASSIS for IT/ST, and a really good option for either. it's heavy, too, so getting it into STL at ~2700 lbs isn't such a heart breaker. doo eeet

only hitch is it was a short run car and I have no idea what their continued support for it or the engine internals will be, and that could be a problem.. something tells me you could find that given your employer. then again, they might prefer that the product you race not be of one of the marques they killed...

+1

http://www.sccaforums.com/forums/for...15/scope/posts

I have heard the ‘handling’ statements from several people, kinda wish I could drive a session to see for myself
01-22-2013, 08:07 PM
Matt93SE

If you're interested in a Solstice, there is/was a T2 solstice prepped by Pratt & Miller in Houston. It was one of the fleet used in that "TV Star in a Race Car" series a few years ago..

Under the hood, it looks to have the AC system removed and good size aluminum radiator. Otherwise it apears stock under the hood. It has Koni Sport Shocks and unknown springs and sways.

It's 100% legal for T2 (as of 2011 anyway) and would work in STU with just a wheel size change and installation of a TIR.

Shoot me a PM or something if you're interested and I'll put you in touch with the owner.