ITC to CR

First I'd like to say that I'm taking the regular advice of this board and will probably buy rather than build my first car. No question, it looks like the much cheaper alternative.

Which leads me to my question. Could someone tell me some of the potential differences between and an ITC prepared rabbit engine and that of the ICSCC's Club Rabbit (The class I am looking to enter)? Here is a link that summarizes the rules for CR: http://www.spiretech.com/~vw6spd/clubrabbit.htm

A car I am considering is rebuildable ex-ITC car that hasn't been run for a couple of years. Basically heavy front damage w/ parts to be transfered to a sound tub.

Thanks for the advice to this newbie, and as always thanks in advance for the info.

TjR

I would love to hear the pedigree of your much-used ITC Rabbit. If it is one that I know from when I raced in the NW during the '80s, I might even be able to tell you what kind of cheats it ran!

A spec bunny class sounds like a fine plan but, if it is based on the Conference Production class, it might NOT be cheaper than IT. I seem to recall that the head modifications that were allowed in the CP classes could get expensive. I will check out the site that you mention to learn more but let me know what the logbook tells you about that car. Even a color might allow me to identify it...

Kirk

Yup--Looking at that site, I think that the allowed head work is going to make the engine preparation SIG-nificantly more expensive than IT. My guess would be that the rest of the hardware is a wash.

Kirk

I'm w/ Kirk, I think this CR car will cost you a lot more than an ITC car, both to build as well as to run. One of the things I noticed in looking at the pics on that site is that one of the cars has dual classifications, CR and GT4. It's hard enough for a Prod car to compete in GT, much less an IT car. I couldn't really tell from any of the pictures, but it looks like they're running slicks. They also don't say anything about a limit on Compression Ratio. There's no way an ITC motor will be able to run w/ one of these motors.

If the car's an ITC car, keep it as an ITC car for starters (or build it to SCCA Limited Prep HProd specs).

[This message has been edited by Bill Miller (edited September 25, 2001).]

Thanks for the response.

The tires are/were spec BFG R1's, but I hear those won't be available for next year. As far as the head is concerned, one must use stock valves, but polishing and match porting is allowed. Here's the link for the rulebook online, and the CR rules start on page 66 : http://www.icscc.com/rules/Cr2001.pdf, for anyone who might be interested.

I am supposed to get a look at the car in the next week, so I'll post some history when I find out.

What I do know is that most of the parts have been removed from the damaged car and are ready to be installed in the donor tub. This is of concern since the cage will have to be re-welded (sleeved), and the suspension may not be legal, say if it's running Carrera coil-overs, but I haven't seen any of it yet. It seems to me that IT allows more suspension mods, while CR allows more engine mods...

At any rate, thanks for the advice. A few weekends ago, there was a guest ride benefit for the Dornbecker Children's hospital. After getting to ride shotgun in a CR for two exhibition (3/4 race speed) laps, I've got the fever real bad...

dc

Ffft. 3/4 speed. Riiiiight...

I remember giving kids rides at similar events at PIR in my ITC car. They almost always bugged me to go faster. I couldn't, but they wanted me to! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Kirk

Dan,

While I'm sure it was a fun ride, I would suggest going w/ something that's a little more 'universal'. The CR is definately a bastardization of some IT stuff and some Prod stuff. Since this club recognizes IT cars, I would go w/ an ITC Rabbit so that you have a little more freedom of where you want to run it and who you want to run it with.

Most of the 'smaller' clubs I've found to be open to running just about anything. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for the SCCA. If you have an SCCA legal car, you can probably run it w/ just about any club. The reverse is not necessarily true.

Good luck!!!

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI

That a good point, Bill. I have always wanted to experience the corkscrew at Laguna first hand. It'd be nice to keep that possibility open.

dc

Dan C Your ITC car wouldn't happen to be yellow in color, previously shaped like a rabbit. If it is, did it get bent to it,s current shape at SIR on Oct/3/98??.

To be honest, I haven't seen it yet. It is currently owned by Greg Swanson.

Do you have some history on the car?

dc

CR(Club Rabbit) is based on Conference production rules(*P) which are based on SCCA IT rules.

Running a CR car in GT4 is only done to get more track time, not to be competitive.

The main differences between a IT engine and a CR engine are porting and the cam. The compression ratio is limited to half a point over stock. The cost difference is negligible.

Chassis wise the cage is not limited in its attachment points, I've seen cars with up to 18 of them.

ITC is under subscribed and races in group 5 with ITS and EIP(SCCA EP). CR cars are run in group 2 where they are one of the faster cars. You could also run in HP(not SCCA HP) with very minor changes from ITC specs.

Bottom line is CR is the best solution for racing a rabbit in the Pacific Northwest.

Peter

Quote:

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The main differences between a IT engine and a CR engine are porting and the cam. The compression ratio is limited to half a point over stock. The cost difference is negligible.

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I'm sorry Peter, but I don't see where a fully ported head w/ any cam is only a 'negligible' [sic] cost difference over a 1" port-matched head w/ a stock cam. I can see the latter costing in the $100 range (for the machine work). The cam alone for the former could be 3 - 4 times that much.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI

I know Peter, Bill, and he likes few things more than to hog metal out of a head! Right, Pete?

http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Kirk

CR uses a specified "G" grind cam, this is a very mild cam. Porting can not exceed the I.D. of the stock intake and exhaust gaskets. The engine should only cost two to four hundred more than an IT engine and is generally a one time expense.

I would like to see CR running with 1.8 10:1 fuel injected engines with a spec cam, now that would be fun, decent power and light weight.

Peter

Hi Kirk.

Peter,

If it's a spec G-grind, the came will be ~$100. And even if you limit the port size to the OEM intake gasket, you can do a lot inside the head, not to mention the time on the flow bench to get it maximized. And I don't know if you said how deep you could port the manifold. I can see a lot more than $300 in machine work and flow bench time.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI

You're right, I was figuring 100 for the cam and the rest for extrude honing the manifold. I do my own porting, hopefully with a little more finesse than Kirk claims.

As for IT engines, if you were to take it to the same extreme as FF or FC, you could end up spending more on the engine than the rest of the car.

I stand by my original conclusion that CR is the rabbit class to run in the NW. I'm sorry to say that the SCCA is pretty weak in the NW. ICSSC may be small in a national context, but in the NW its miles ahead of the SCCA.

Peter

I will jump in here to Peter's defense (na-nah!)

I haven't seen what the Yeeles boys have been up to for a couple of years (did the airplane ever get finished? http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif ) but I can vouch for their ability to do pretty much anything that needs doing to a race car. Pete is more than competent to grind a "Conference" port job into a Golf engine, as well as anything else in the powerplant, so it would be a freebie for him.

Having said that, Peter, how much would you charge someone who doesn't have your cleverness, for the time required to port match? We always have to make up for a lack of talent with $$!

Best,

Kirk

You can see the plane here http://home.att.net/~CYeeles/ As you can see it still has a ways to go. Chris sold his race car and got married, he sold the car to help pay for the Glasair engine.

I would guess $300 for the porting.

I re-read the original post from Dan C, sorry for going off on a tangent. You should talk to someone already running in the class. Chris Heinrich comes to mind, I think he has been running in the class for a little over a year (class champ this year). He can be reached thru his dad, Dan. e-mail him at [email protected] . The conference web site might be of help, the rules are posted on it. icscc.com

Peter