93 notch mustang 2.3 vs 5.0

Hi all,
We are new to this forum and we need your help.

We bought a 93 notchback coupe that the owner was building for SCCA AS class. He got as far as roll cage, fire suppression, hood pins, fuel cell, batt box (in driver compartment), Steeda 5-link, sn95 5-lug axles in an 8.8 rear, GT front bumper, GT wheels, koni 5-way adj. shocks, Butler seat, and master switch welded to RH window roll bar.

We are new to club racing and thought it would be cheaper to go regional IT. The next question is 2.3(ITB class) vs. 5.0 (ITR class).

I believe many of the add-on that he has made for AS will NOT be allowed in IT. Here are my questions:
1. Can I use the above items that are not true to the LX since the GT was not available as a notch?
2. Can I get enough out of a 2.3 n/a with limited mods to be competitive?
3. Should I just build for AS and can I start with a stock 5.0?
4. If I use a 2.3 should it be 4 or 8 plug?

These are tuff decisions for us, we need your smarts on this one.

If any of you are SCCA CFR we would love to meet you and talk further.

thanks...Tom

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Originally Posted by Big3Tom

I believe many of the add-on that he has made for AS will NOT be allowed in IT. Here are my questions:

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Good questions! Welcome to the madness.

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Originally Posted by Big3Tom

1. Can I use the above items that are not true to the LX since the GT was not available as a notch?

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No, you can't. You can't "make a model", and you can't exchange parts ("update/backdate") between body types. From 9.1.3.C, "To maintain the stock basis of Improved Touring, updating and/or backdating of components is only permitted within cars of the same make, model, body type (e.g., sedan, station wagon, convertible, etc.), and engine size as listed on a single Improved Touring Specification Line."

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about Mustangs to answer your other questions.

IF you want to go IT racing, you first have to figure out what you want to do. You can't run the notch back in ITR as the 5.0 as far as I know didn't come with a trunk. If it did then you can run it in ITR.

If you run the notch in IT, you will have to cage rules as the cage requirments may be different.

things that he did that you would have to change back.

Battery back to stock location, remove steeda 5 link, and remove 8.8 and install 7.5.

Also I don't know what koni's you have but in IT you are restricted to two external adjustments.

If you are familiar with the 2.3L you can make power from it, and can be competitive at certain tracks, as the brakes, and the suspension are the limiting factors of the car. The good thing is that the specline for the car covers a wide range, and you have options like the 4 v.s 8 plug, carb v.s efi, 4 speed v.s 5 speed, etc.. I know at roebling road a ITB mustang set track record and won the race aobut a half year ago. It has since been reset by an old ITB celica (little less power, but 200lbs lighter), but it is proof, that at some tracks it can be made competitive.

You can run the car regionally in AS, the engine build rules are well defined in the AS section of the GCR detailing everything from part # required, to the exact valve seat angles.

Mustangs were available with the HO 5.0 in the notch. I owned a 1992. The suspension & drivetrain were the same as the GT, only the body and trim were different.
To run ITB you would have to use the smaller front brakes, drum brakes in the rear and the 7.5 rear. The Steeda rear suspensiion is not IT legal since you can't remove stock links, but you can add a panhard bar.

Your definitive source for ITB Mustang information is a guy names Ron Satelle. He's in SEDiv and posts here sometimes, as I recall.

K

thanks for the info so far. We have decided to run ITB and build an 8 plug 2.3. Can we run a carb on a 93?

I think I can get enough for the parts I can't use to recoup the $600 i'm paying for the chassis. I just think the notch is cool and I heard they were stiffer.

Is there a problem with having a larger than needed roll cage tubing?

I remember the old Mustang FHP cop cars were notch LX with interceptor goodies. If I find one and document it can I use those components? I'm combing Craigslist for a donor car.

The rules say that a front spoiler and brake ducting is permited. Wouldn't the GT front bumper meet that rule?

Is there someone out there that is a 2.3 n/a guru that can offer some speed tricks that are within the SCCA rules?

Sorry for all the questions, I hope that they are not stupid. I searched the archives for info.

Thanks...Tom

Ron has alot of knoledge, has years and years developing the car.

You have to use a factory long block. So whatever block, head, cam, intake setup that you want to use. Also you can only run a combo that came in the mustang. some of the last heads on the rangers were significantly bigger if I recall correctly, but also had different intakes. You have to run the factory body panels, that the 2.3L mustang came with. once yo uhave the factory 4 banger bumper you can work from their.

600 for the chassis? you could make money off this car. as the steeda, the rear end, and possilby koni's (if they are illegal) are all woth alot of money and could be sold.

Early Fox cars are listed on the same line from '79-'93, so all equipment from one to another can be used. "Model" refers to equipment from a different year than those listed on the same line. Therefore you can build, for instance, a '93 with a carb, Cologne gear box, and 6 3/4 in. differential, with 13 inch rims.

Going from an AS car to IT will require you to do the following: remove any cage bars that go thru the firewall; move the battery to the engine compartment; replace lights if removed; replace the 8.8 rear with the 7 1/2, or the 6 3/4, change the brakes to the smaller discs of the 4 cylinder car, which also had drum brakes in the rear. The aftermarket suspension parts in the rear can be used as long as the original upper arms remain. They can be make legal with the use of "air Bushings". Personally, I like the four link used by itself, for its lightness, and the quirks of the design can be minimalized with bushing selection. Doing this will allow you to market the aftermarket parts for extra cash. AND, you will lighten the chassis at the same time. Build the car to the lightest you can, scrutinizing every part for its usefullness, and its weight. Leave off any part that will not make the car go down the track faster.


Using a notch, 6 3.4 rear, Cologne box, light but safe cage, poly cell, 13 inch rims (stock car stuff is very light), and they clear the calipers, and removing all available extraneous weight, you can build a car under the minimum weight as listed...I've done it.


I'd be willing to answer any questions. Write me.

[email protected]

Bill

Be glad to help anyway I can. We have been working on the Mustang for years. The 2.3 can make gobs of power it's the handling that will always set you back. We are very strong at Roebling, flowing track, not a lot of big stops or tight turns. I goes down hill from there. We did just set the track record at Kershaw, I have no idea how, the car did not feel fast. Call me in the evenings to discuss on monday, or wednesday ( soccer practice other nights.

Home 770-218-9967

Wow, you guys are great. I feel alot better knowing that I can make these changes and have a competitive car.

Bill... I was hoping to hear from you. I read all your previous posts (I'm not stalking you...) and your experience is evident and appreciated.

My friend, Jim, who is an SRF owner, told me to cover up the car (I just picked it up today) and focus on the ITC Honda Civic that I will be driving at my first SCCA school at Daytona this weekend.

I did take some new pix of the fox while still on our trailer. I need to figure out how to load them on this site. It seems alot like our Mastercraft forum.

I have a line on a 90 notch 2.3, 5speed, that may be a donor car.
It is low mileage and clean.

Steven...I look forward to seeing you at the school track. My son and I will be doing Homestead and Sebring. Our home track is Sebring and we crew for a group of SRF guys called the Brew Crew.

Ron...I'm going to take you up on that call after this weekend.

I would like to get all your imput.

Thanks...Tom

I posted the first pixs of our new project on my album.

Well, the decision has been made to build the car to ITR V-8 specs. Now we start looking for a donor GT.

Since the spec line calls out GT and LX, can I use GT parts when the Notch was only a LX? What if I find a police interceptor notch, that was an LX model.

Tom

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Originally Posted by Big3Tom

Well, the decision has been made to build the car to ITR V-8 specs. Now we start looking for a donor GT.

Since the spec line calls out GT and LX, can I use GT parts when the Notch was only a LX? What if I find a police interceptor notch, that was an LX model.

Tom

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Well, you can't make a model that didn't exist. I think if you turn the car into a police interceptor, you'd be okay, but you can't use GT-only parts on a notch.

Thats what I'm thinking too.

was the police intercepter model available from the factory on the lot, that wasn't a dealer option? From the sounds of it it was offered to the "police" and not the public.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big3Tom

Well, the decision has been made to build the car to ITR V-8 specs. Now we start looking for a donor GT.

Since the spec line calls out GT and LX, can I use GT parts when the Notch was only a LX? What if I find a police interceptor notch, that was an LX model.

Tom

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Look long and hard at that decision.

I was one of the folks responsible for getting V8 Mustangs into ITR and the proposal was narrow in scope to increase the chances of passing. So, we specified only Mustang GTs. Bear in mind that excludes Mustang Cobra (1993) and any nice parts it has to offer (improved heads, intake, and rear discs - the real key).

If you choose a 86-93 GT Mustang you're at a pretty high weight with small front discs and drum rears. The current climate around the CRB/ITAC pretty much guarentees no changes to cars in the foreseeable future, so don't request adjustments to the car - know the car going into it.

A better choice, IMHO, is the 1994/1995 Mustang GT which is, at today's prices, about the same. A running 90 GT will cost you $1400, a running 94 GT is around $2500 where I'm at. Not a whole lot more given how much money will eventually go into a top notch ITR car.........

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Originally Posted by quadzjr

was the police intercepter model available from the factory on the lot, that wasn't a dealer option? From the sounds of it it was offered to the "police" and not the public.

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It wasn't offered to the public and it isn't on the spec line. As I recall there wasn't much to it either - engine oil cooler, better radiator, hoses, swaybar, better alternator, etc. Engine output was the same, despite some myths to the contrary. Check the Ford sites, they'll run it down for you.

I just looked at the SCCA web site at the ITR rules and it says only 89-93 Mustang GT and LX Mustangs. There is no mention of hatchback vrs notch. Both cane with 5.0 v8s and all suspension & drive trains were the same. Same brakes, rear end, transmission. It didn't mater if it was a hatchback or a notch. I owned 3 different Fox Mustangs and raced a '93 Cobra R. I thing I know what I'm talking about.

Saying that I do agree that the 94-95 GT may be a better choise for ITR. Stiffer chassis, better suspension & brakes stock, and can run at a lighter weight. Cost of these cars is not much higher then a 5.0 Fox. A Fox in good condition is now holding its own price wise and may in the future go up a bit. I know a stock 5.0 notch in good condition can command a price higher then a stock GT.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big3Tom

Wow, you guys are great. I feel alot better knowing that I can make these changes and have a competitive car.

Bill... I was hoping to hear from you. I read all your previous posts (I'm not stalking you...) and your experience is evident and appreciated.

My friend, Jim, who is an SRF owner, told me to cover up the car (I just picked it up today) and focus on the ITC Honda Civic that I will be driving at my first SCCA school at Daytona this weekend.

I did take some new pix of the fox while still on our trailer. I need to figure out how to load them on this site. It seems alot like our Mastercraft forum.

I have a line on a 90 notch 2.3, 5speed, that may be a donor car.
It is low mileage and clean.

Steven...I look forward to seeing you at the school track. My son and I will be doing Homestead and Sebring. Our home track is Sebring and we crew for a group of SRF guys called the Brew Crew.

Ron...I'm going to take you up on that call after this weekend.

I would like to get all your imput.

Thanks...Tom

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Not a Mustang guy, but I will be at the same school, so I will look you up. Good luck!!

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Originally Posted by jimbbski

I just looked at the SCCA web site at the ITR rules and it says only 89-93 Mustang GT and LX Mustangs. There is no mention of hatchback vrs notch.

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I stand corrected. I don't recall doing the LX line, but, it matters little as you say since a 5L LX was the same as the 5L GT except for the godawful looking louvers and skirts the GT sported. I had an 85 5L LX notch back before they got "cool" in the 90s and LXs became more common.

Well its time to live with my decisions. I bought a donor 89 LX 5.0 5-speed. We will be pulling the drivetrain and suspension out of it and freshening it up.

I just learned that ITR usually runs in Group 1 with the GT cars.

I drove an ITC at school and I got alot of practice being passed.

This will probably be a good learning experience. I will have less than 5k in the whole car.

Chris... Where you the guys with the datsun shirts on? I was in the little 04 Honda. We ran in different groups.

What a blast...I'm hooked. I hope to run the ITC enduro in 2 weeks @ Daytona and then Homestead and Sebring.

Tom

Well we went to Daytona and ran in the Group I enduro as well as the Group VII regional. We ran a Honda Civic and we were seriously under powered. I spent the whole time playing the role of pylon on a rollerskate. I want to go faster, yet I would enjoy being a competitive ITB car.

We got a line on an AS Camaro if we want to run with the V8s.

I have gone back and forth on the Mustang and have now collected a 302/T5 drivetrain,a 302/auto combo, and a complete 2.3/T5 car.

I can sell all of the parts and make money, but my son wants to build his own car.

If we commit to ITB, would it be smarter to build from scratch with the 2.3 car or convert the AS project to ITB?

Dang, I sound like my wife at Belks.

Anybody want a 90 notch 2.3/T5 for $1200.00? We have the title.

Tom