is a mk2 16v competitive?

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Originally Posted by Bill Miller

That begs the questions of where does he race and who is he racing against? A 1.8 16v or a 2.0 16v isn't going to stand a chance in a North East ITA race. Cut the weight of the 2.0 closer to that of the 1.8, and you might have a chance.

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That's always the question - just b/c a car wins a race doesn't mean that it's competitive if the "usual" leaders didn't show for the event.

I've been racing a 1.8 16v for years (b/c I'm stupid) and the car is far from "maxed out" so it's slow in comparison to at least half the field. That having been said, it's been reasonably durable and it's a veritable tank in a sea of Japanese tin-foil.

I think it's possible to get weight down to minimum but it takes alot of effort and a very thin driver (which ain't me). Even so, as noted, it has the aero of a large brick BUT at least you become everybody's friend b/c you'll find at least 5 cars stacked up behind you on the straights as they draft their way past...

Very true. Its not really competitive but at least its a reliable car that you can go around and beat. For sure its a tank. I'm a Miata's favorite guy at Daytona lol. If the weight wasn't so heavy it maybe able but I don't see that happening. But hey, were all out here to have fun, being in the back by yourself is not but as long as you have some cars to play with it doesn't matter front or back.

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Originally Posted by jmracer17

Very true. Its not really competitive but at least its a reliable car that you can go around and beat. For sure its a tank. I'm a Miata's favorite guy at Daytona lol. If the weight wasn't so heavy it maybe able but I don't see that happening. But hey, were all out here to have fun, being in the back by yourself is not but as long as you have some cars to play with it doesn't matter front or back.

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James,
With that attitude you'll go far club racing. And honestly a 16v can be competitive, maybe not a front runner but certainly a top 5 car. Keep working at it young man and don't hesitate to ask us for help.

Here in the NE a 16v is not competitive in ITA no matter how much prep you give it.
I have been racing and building VW's since 1993. We converted a number of 16v's to 8v to compete in ITB where there are competitive. I think it's a very easy change... just change the head.
VW's are very durable and very cost effective to run.
Having said the above, it depends upon who shows up and what the talent of the VW and other competitors driver skill is. But on average it is at a performance disadvantage.
Here in the NE we do use stock cams and cams cannot be "closed up" since the rules do NOT allow this ;-)
Although no one has really tried to use a custom map system yet with the 16v - maybe this might give it more of an edge. Any thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Beran

Here in the NE a 16v is not competitive in ITA no matter how much prep you give it.
I have been racing and building VW's since 1993. We converted a number of 16v's to 8v to compete in ITB where there are competitive. I think it's a very easy change... just change the head.
VW's are very durable and very cost effective to run.
Having said the above, it depends upon who shows up and what the talent of the VW and other competitors driver skill is. But on average it is at a performance disadvantage.
Here in the NE we do use stock cams and cams cannot be "closed up" since the rules do NOT allow this ;-)
Although no one has really tried to use a custom map system yet with the 16v - maybe this might give it more of an edge. Any thoughts?

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Not exactly Beran. Putting a GX (8v) head on a PL (16v) bottom end will give you ~13.5:1 CR.

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Originally Posted by Beran

Although no one has really tried to use a custom map system yet with the 16v - maybe this might give it more of an edge. Any thoughts?

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I've been considering this from an academic perspective for a while and cannot figure out how this can be done with off the shelf ECU hardware. The PL engine with CIS-E does not have a toothed crank wheel, only a hall effect cam sensor. So I don't know how one could install an aftermarket ECU to run fuel and spark, as allowed by the new IT rules. (Well, it was allowed before, just had to be within the stock box.)

If you can write the software I have thought of one way to do it easily. And that is to have an ECU read in a wideband O2 sensor and then based on a map of say engine load and rpm, output a simulated switching O2 sensor to bias the DPR as desired. Essentially intercepting and fooling the stock O2 sensor input. But this would only work for closed loop operation, not open loop.

There is one other way, and that is to remove the CIS-E unit and run the DPR control out of a programmable ECU. But again, that only affects closed loop operation and not open loop.

So the new ECU rule is useless to those of us with mechanical fuel injection and no stock toothed crank wheel. Since the new open ECU rule doesn't benefit everyone, I wonder if the SCCA would consider a clause to allow sensor/actuator parity to go along with the open ECU rule? Probably not.....

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Originally Posted by GTIspirit

...I wonder if the SCCA would consider a clause to allow sensor/actuator parity to go along with the open ECU rule? Probably not.....

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:shrug:

This has actually been a topic of conversation recently on the ITAC.

Hmmm, I think we've strayed a bit off topic talking about the open ECU rule in this thread. ;) Even if there is such a discussion in the ITAC, I don't ever see them allowing mechanical fuel injectors to be replaced by electric fuel injectors, distributor being replaced by coil system. :shrug: That would also be necessary to create parity with cars that are so equipped to take advantage of the open ECU rule. Otherwise just allowing a standard sensor set, i.e. to include crank and cam wheels and associated sensors wouldn't really give us all that much.

But back on topic, I wonder how much a programmable ECU would benefit a PL engine to make the Mk2 16V competitive in ITA? I'm not convinced it would gain a whole lot over a CIS-E system in good working order.

Bill - thanks for the correction/data regarding 16v & 8v. I guess the motors need to be completely swapped.

The distributor has a 4 window hall effect sensor, which can be read by some fuel injection computers effectively as engine speed (though not as nice and accurate as a multi tooth wheel).

Controlling the CIS-E can be done, but no one has gotten there yet. We are taking a non-IT useable route on a production car, and for my 8v I would rather loose the extra weight of the CIS-E parts and gain the more readily available parts of the Digifant on my conversion, so I won't be figuring it out right now.

SO...digi conversion is legal for IT? I've done this on my DD passat 16v and love it. But it seems week down low.

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Originally Posted by vwcorvette

SO...digi conversion is legal for IT? I've done this on my DD passat 16v and love it. But it seems week down low.

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Since the VIN rule is gone, yes you could convert a CIS-E 8V car to digi and then use an aftermarket ECU to contol it (Megasquirt would work well). I suspect a properly done MK2 digi car with an MS system would be VERY competitive in ITB.

Digi conversion (or converting digi to CIS-E) has always been legal for the 8v cars because the spec line includes both systems. The vin rule being 'fixed' means you can now turn an 16v into an 8v and vice versa.

Just a quick update - after what I've seen this w/e, the 16v GTi in 1.8l trim simply is NOT competitive in ITA. In other words, whomever is building one can either spend s**tloads of money to bring it to mid-pack or just spend their money more wisely and purchase either a Miata or a Honda product.

Hmm - Let's see this is a VW forum.
Screw the honda and Miata talk here.
One should buy an MK3 or MK4 and compete in ITB! Or a VW in Showroom stock.
;-)

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Originally Posted by mgyip

spend their money more wisely and purchase either a Miata or a Honda product.

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Wasn't that the whole reason for Spec Miata? Because people felt the Miata wasn't competitive in ITA?

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Originally Posted by Beran

Hmm - Let's see this is a VW forum.
Screw the honda and Miata talk here.
One should buy an MK3 or MK4 and compete in ITB! Or a VW in Showroom stock.
;-)

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or a 98 99 new beetle and play in ITC

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Originally Posted by mgyip

Just a quick update - after what I've seen this w/e, the 16v GTi in 1.8l trim simply is NOT competitive in ITA. In other words, whomever is building one can either spend s**tloads of money to bring it to mid-pack or just spend their money more wisely and purchase either a Miata or a Honda product.

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What did you see that caused this change of heart? :026:

I've getting WALKED by CRXs with stock final drives and Integras with 300K on the engine... Sure, I can spend big dollars and get the car back into the top 10 but I have serious doubts that the 16v will ever be a winner in ITA.

Competitive? Sure - if you don't mind racing for the top 15 (out of 14 cars) and I will say that it's fun to race regardless of finishing position. However, it's no fun to know you're vying for DFL and the only reason you're not is b/c you're younger and more angry than the guy who just wants to turn some laps.

Back in ancient history, BSI told me that I was a fool for racing a 16v - conversely, SRS was convinced that the car could be a winner. I'm starting to think that Stu was more correct especially since I don't have bottomless pockets for a hobby whose big "winning" is a nice plastic trophy.

Yes, this is a VW-related forum but to ignore the competition (Honda, Mazda) is just plain stupid. It's like reading VW Vortex, a rather large VW-oriented forum, whose entire premise is "We're so blinded by VW that we'll overlook everything else so we can remain brand-loyal".

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Originally Posted by GTIspirit

Wasn't that the whole reason for Spec Miata? Because people felt the Miata wasn't competitive in ITA?

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I think you're confusing Wreck Pinata with Wreck RX-7 - IT7 came into being b/c SCCA couldn't get their heads out of their butts to realize that the RX-7s (ITA) were getting slaughtered by the fuel-infected cars. Wreck RX-7 came about first to give ITA RX-7 drivers a place to race where they wouldn't automatically be DFL.

I'm not sure why Wreck Pinata came about but on Saturday's race, a mildly prepared ITA Pinata won and the same car took 2nd on Sunday so it's certainly competitive.