civic camber problem

I traded my illegal ball-joint front camber adjusters for the PITA bushing adjusters off of the parts car. The only problem is that they're adjusting the camber positive, and I'm not going to be on a oval anytime soon. I *think* it's a Ingalls kit, but I'm ont sure as I have nothing on the part. I tried flipping them on the a-arm but I couldn't get it back through the mounting holes on the chasis as it was hitting the wheel well. The only other thing I can figure is to swap sides but I can't reason out if that would have any effect or not. Anyone have any ideas?

Evan
91 Civic

Do you really need to add camber to the front? To my knowledge, all the 88-91 Civic/CRXen are able to get enough camber out of their ride height without messing with adjustable front pieces.

Sorry I'm not able to offer any info on your question as I'm running non-adjustable, stock style bushings up front.

Christian

Ingalls has 2 different kits. One only adds positive camber for extremely low cars. The other will correct a little bit each way, maybe +or- 1.5 degrees. So you probably have the first one or the wrong kit.

This isn't legal in IT anyway, is it? I'm thinking only offset bushings (for whatever reason). Maybe you are running autocrosses with different rules for your class?

Christian is right too, the lower you can get the car the more negative camber you should get. Just don't bottom out the struts or you'll trash them.
Matt

You're probably right about the kit, the parts car was way too low. I had the ball joint adjusters that SPC makes, the ones that aren't IT legal, from autox. I've gotten more into track and TT's untill I can put a cage in it. I thought that these were legal so I was going to swap them out, but alas, I have failed. I'm just going to put my ball joints back in. I would like to be able to adjust it, where can I find a kit that is IT legal?

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I would like to be able to adjust it, where can I find a kit that is IT legal?
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Honestly, I'm not sure who makes offset front bushings for the 88-91 chassis b/c, again, you don't need them to adjust front camber. The 88-91's have a really good camber curve from the factory and you should be able to get all the camber you need through ride height alone. Too much camber is an excellent indicator that your car is probably too low which also means that you probably don't have enough front travel.

Christian, who thinks that you're trying to fix a problem that shouldn't be there in the first place

The guys are right, the front camber should only be 1 - 1.5 negative which can be gotten with the shorter springs and adjustable pearch.

You should replace the front radius rod bushings (which I happen to have in stock) and the lower control arm bushings should be replaced (I have those also).

However I believe to make the cars really handle well you should focus on getting more rear camber (up to 3 - 3.5 neg.) it will make the car less twichy, and with a good set of upper control arm bushings (which I also have) you can adjust the camber for the track (less for pocono, more for NHIS etc) with simple shims.

Getting a much rubber out of the control arms makes the car more predictable which will lead to consistant handling which will result in driver confidence which will result in lower lap times which will result in a happy camper with more trophys...

One person (honda-tech RR/AX) told me that the *ideal* ride height is between 22 1/4 to 22 5/8 to the fender lip in the front and 22 3/4 rear. That leaves me with about 2 inches of shock travel, which I think may be too low. I have been running around 2-2.5 degrees negative in the front and about 1.5 negative in the rear with 1/16 teo out in the front and zero rear. I'm just now really getting a real suspension under it and have lots to learn, so thanks for whatever advice you can give me.

I was also running with a progressive rate street kit and some big bump stops that had me set up way too soft, I'm just now putting the car back togeather and don't really know whats going to happen.

BTW,

koni rear
bilstein front
ground controls
Progress rear bar
SPC camber adjusters front and rear.

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One person (honda-tech RR/AX) told me that the *ideal* ride height is between 22 1/4 to 22 5/8 to the fender lip in the front and 22 3/4 rear. That leaves me with about 2 inches of shock travel, which I think may be too low. I have been running around 2-2.5 degrees negative in the front and about 1.5 negative in the rear with 1/16 teo out in the front and zero rear. I'm just now really getting a real suspension under it and have lots to learn, so thanks for whatever advice you can give me.

I was also running with a progressive rate street kit and some big bump stops that had me set up way too soft, I'm just now putting the car back togeather and don't really know whats going to happen.

BTW,

koni rear
bilstein front
ground controls
Progress rear bar
SPC camber adjusters front and rear.
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Most of the "brain" at HT left and started a new site about a year ago: roadrace-autox.com If didn't catch the previous exodus, I'd suggest signing up and asking about setup there. I'm on there under the same user name as here.

What is your ride height at the rocker? Not the pinch weld/jackpoint but at the lowest point on the front rocker. With shortened front shocks, you'll typically run out of travel about the same time you run out of allowable ride height. IT is 5" minimum from the rocker.

Your toe measurements sound fine. I couldn't tell you exactly what my camber is b/c it's not adjustable. Ride height and toe measurements are all I need for setup.

Cut your bumpstops in half, get some decent rack rate springs, ditch the bilstiens up front for some Koni's. At some point, you'll want to go ahead and get the Koni's revalved/shortened so they can better deal with the higher rates you'll be running. BTW, what size is your progress rear bar? Do you still have the front bar?

Christian

I knew some people left, but I didn't know where they went. I'm not sure what I am at the rocker. I think it's a 22mm, it's off the parts car, I can find out. I still have the front bar on the car and I have the stock rear bar plus a integra rear bar. I have 450/600 rates also. Honestly I'd rather put a set of Bilstein clickers (if I can get Bilstein to make some) on the rear that put koni's on. I know that's what everyone runs but I like my bilsteins.

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I knew some people left, but I didn't know where they went.[/b]

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It's a long story but quite a few of us gave donations and started a new site. The site is also hosted at www.rr-ax.com (just b/c it's easier to type). The new forum really picks up where HT left off and, imo, has a better signal to noise ratio.

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I'm not sure what I am at the rocker. [/b]

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I'd measure from your rocker and see where you are. If you're below 5", you're too low. Since you're running Bilstiens up front, you may not be able to get down as low as would be ideal without running out of travel. Are your fronts shortened or standard length?

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I think it's a 22mm, it's off the parts car, I can find out.
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Sounds about right and it should work. Another option is the adjustable 3/4" ST bar.

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I still have the front bar on the car and I have the stock rear bar plus a integra rear bar. I have 450/600 rates also. [/b]

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Most people end up removing the front bar for better balance and traction off the corners. The stock and teg rear bars are, imo, waaaay too small to get the car to really rotate... even more so if you're still running a front bar. Your rates sound like a good starting point but a little on the low side where you'll probably want to be in the future.

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Honestly I'd rather put a set of Bilstein clickers (if I can get Bilstein to make some) on the rear that put koni's on. I know that's what everyone runs but I like my bilsteins.
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Obviously you can run Bilstiens if you can get them to work but you just hit on one of the major benefits to running the revalved/shortened Koni's: many other people already run them so you can get plenty of input on where to set them for a baseline and where to adjust them if the car isn't doing what you want it to. BTW, Lee Grimes from Koni-NA is regularly on rr-ax too if you need input.

Christian

Quite a few of the fast guys in Honda cars also run Advanced Design shocks which don't need to be shortened and can be revalved or ordered setup for the car. Personally I think they have q few more features and are a little more tunable. I also think you need to look at your spring package. Get the car down to the minimum 5" and then look into getting the car scaled so that the balance is correct. Make sure the alignment is exact and take the time to understand what affects what. Then when you go to the track your adjustments are guesswork

As far as bars go, dump the front bar and look to a 22mm (or 7/8") rear bar with adjustment holes. Between the shocks, bars, and springs you should be able to tune the car to your driving style (which is a lot more important that you think).

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Quite a few of the fast guys in Honda cars also run Advanced Design shocks which don't need to be shortened and can be revalved or ordered setup for the car. Personally I think they have q few more features and are a little more tunable.[/b]

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I'm going to have to differ in opinion with Tom on the shocks. Everyone that I know or have spoken with, have had problems with AD's. In the most extreme case, I saw a new AD user blow a shock in the first weekend of use.

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I also think you need to look at your spring package. Get the car down to the minimum 5" and then look into getting the car scaled so that the balance is correct. Make sure the alignment is exact and take the time to understand what affects what. Then when you go to the track your adjustments are[n't] guesswork

As far as bars go, dump the front bar and look to a 22mm (or 7/8") rear bar with adjustment holes. Between the shocks, bars, and springs you should be able to tune the car to your driving style (which is a lot more important that you think).
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:thumbup:

There is always sombody who has problems, but the fastest CRX's and Integ's here in the NE have run them with minimal if any problems. I would not recommend any other.

Bump, Rebound, and Gas Pressure all in one spot, they have all the same adjustments my Penski's had in my GT4 Car.

But each to his own

The 22mm has a three hole asjustment to it. The front Bilstein's are regular, I'll probably need to do something with them before too long too. I'll raise it back up some too. I ran a TT at TGPR (Talledega road course) and was putting down (slow but consistant) 1:16's. I'm going to go back there at the end of sept. and see what I can put down now. Based on other peoples times at the same event I'd like to be running a 1:14 or 1:12.

Should I align it first or weight it?

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Should I align it first or weight it?
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Both are important but nothing makes a car more evil and vile than a wacked out alignment. Find a place that will give you a good zero toe alignment all the way around, buy a set of toe plates, and then dial in whatever toe settings you want.

Actually a friend of mine, who races too, is a mechanic at a local dealership. He usually puts it on the rack for me after hours at a good price. Of course that doesn't help me if I ever want to do it at the track...

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