'99 BMW E46 323

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12-22-2003, 12:19 PM
jwarcd

'99 BMW E46 323

I just read the February Fastrack because I was interested in seeing what weight they gave to the 1999 BMW E46 323. The reason I was interested is because I submitted the request to have it classified. I laughed when I read 3000lbs. Since the E36 325 is classified at 2850lbs, and the E46 323 has 19 less HP, with everything else pretty much being identical to the E36 (brake size, engine size, suspension design, etc.), I figured that they would put the weight at the same as the E36. The problem now is that even if I wanted to build an E46, I couldn’t because there is no way to get a race prepared E46 to 3000lbs without adding more than the allotted 100lbs of ballast.

The other item that caught my eye was the weight for the ’99 Civic Si at 2360lbs. I guess I have to switch from BMWs to Hondas…

Jared

NER #91 ITS
12-22-2003, 01:23 PM
GKR_17

The 323i/is from '98 and '99 is built on an E36 chassis.

Grafton
12-22-2003, 02:34 PM
jwarcd

'99 was the first year of the E46. BMW introduced the 4dr that year. They also sold the 2dr E36 in '99 also.
12-22-2003, 02:47 PM
Greg Amy

Quote:

...no way to get a race prepared E46 to 3000lbs without adding more than the allotted 100lbs of ballast.

Note that the 'race prep' rules are filled with "may" and "can" in regards to removal of heavy interior parts like carpeting, padding, door panels, window mechanisms, spare tires, etc. It would be kinda "cool" to still have working air conditioning... http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Quote:

...guess I have to switch from BMWs to Hondas...

That wouldn't be too bright. If you're currently racing ITS in NER I'm sure you understand the possibilities...

Quote:

...introduced the 4dr that year...also sold the 2dr E36...

That begs the question, then: which one was approved for ITS? Sounds like a can 'o worms to me...

GregA
135HP FWD ITS car, with no empathy...
12-22-2003, 04:44 PM
jwarcd

Greg,

My comment about switching to Honda was made out of frustration with SCCA in general. It looks like when they classify cars, it seems like they pick numbers at random. (This has been discussed countless times on thid board, so I shouldn't be surprised.)

I really don't think you can build the car at 3000lbs even with removing just the componets that are required. I'm sure not going to build one to find out. BTW, I had an E30 325 with working air conditioning. :-)

BTW what is listed in Fastrack says '98 and '99 E46 323 is wrong, it should only say '99. I guess someone else must have requested the '98 E36 323 and they incorrectly combined it with my request.
12-22-2003, 08:03 PM
Greg Amy

Quote:

It looks like when they classify cars, it seems like they pick numbers at random.

Dude, you CANNOT know how much I empathize with THAT sentiment...
12-22-2003, 08:57 PM
Bill Miller

Quote:

Originally posted by grega:
Dude, you CANNOT know how much I empathize with THAT sentiment...

I knew my ears were burning for a reason!!!! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
12-22-2003, 10:28 PM
Knestis

The interesting thing about randomness is that sometimes it doesn't appear to be random - like rolling four sixes in a row with a die.

Similarly, sometimes a collection of very purposeful individual actions taken as a group appear to be very random when it is really fairly easy to predict each individually. I think a lot of people here, if asked what the CB would do with the next ITS BMW proposal, could have predicted that they would slam the lead on them.

It's a reactionary position to the current flurry over the e36 "dominance" of ITS. I would argue that the huge number for the e46 reflects what the same group of people would LOVE to do with the current 325 if they had the option - but their hands are tied.

This is also more data with which to shoot holes in the age-old lie that "competition adjustments" are not a part of IT. They ARE and HAVE BEEN for a loooong time, albeit applied at the point of initial specification: Weights are set based on anticipations of competitiveness and are rounded up if the car is perceived to be a threat.

K
12-22-2003, 11:26 PM
lateapex911

As I've said before, nearly every racing class in the world is "Competition adjusted". Whether by very restricted classing, (SS), initial weight setting, (IT), continual adjustments based on model superiority utilizing several performance parameters (Prod), or continual adjustments based on model/driver superiority (Speed World Challenge), the goal is to equalize competition.

The new weight for the E46 is, of course, no surprise. Heavy? Lot's of folks who have to figure out what to do about the E36 want to know if 150 lbs is the right amount for a PCA. They wonder if it's enough.

The curb weight is what, 3300-3400 and it can't be gotten UP to race weight?? Huh?? With nearly total freedom in cage design, not to metion a gazillion other "tricks", claiming a car can't get to weight with "only" 100 lbs of ballast is stretching things a bit, no?

If they set the weight to 2850, we'd all be shreiking that they learned nothing! They can't win.....

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
12-23-2003, 12:24 AM
jwarcd

Quote:

Originally posted by lateapex911:
The curb weight is what, 3300-3400 and it can't be gotten UP to race weight?? Huh?? With nearly total freedom in cage design, not to metion a gazillion other "tricks", claiming a car can't get to weight with "only" 100 lbs of ballast is stretching things a bit, no?

Good Question. The curb weight is 3153 lbs, which is a few pounds more than an E36. Just the front seats weight 78 lbs each, so the weight comes off pretty quickly.

If I go by what my E36 weighted (2850 lbs with full tank and 25 lbs ballast), and add back the AC, spare tire, crazy cage, etc. and the few extra pounds that the E46 weights, yeah you're right it might get you up to 3000 lbs. I could even listen to the radio when I race. :-)

Well anyway it's a mute point, since even if it weighted 2850 lbs like the E36 it wouldn't be competitive since it has 19 less HP.

I was hoping that the SCCA would be reasonable with the weight, but I new from the beginning they would make it heavy. That's why I tried made a point in my letter to the SCCA that the car should actually weight less than the E36. :-) I know, they probably got a good chuckle out of that one.
12-23-2003, 09:09 AM
Geo

Quote:

Originally posted by jwarcd:
Well anyway it's a mute point, since even if it weighted 2850 lbs like the E36 it wouldn't be competitive since it has 19 less HP.

Oh, I don't know. It would probably be as competitive with the E36 as everything else. The only folks who think the CRB got the weight right on the E36 are E36 drivers.

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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
01-09-2004, 10:27 PM
zracer22

How does the 323i even begin to fit the IT philosophy. $17,000 is the averge paid for one from a private owner. http://www.edmunds.com/used/1999/bmw/3seri...ble.num4.1.bmw*

Makes the E36 325i look cheap.
01-10-2004, 10:54 AM
Bill Miller

Quote:

Originally posted by zracer22:
How does the 323i even begin to fit the IT philosophy. $17,000 is the averge paid for one from a private owner. http://www.edmunds.com/used/1999/bmw/3series/12270/prices.html?tid= edmunds.u.mipmake.pricetable.num4.1.bmw*://http://www.edmunds.com/used/1999/bm...ble.num4.1.bmw*

Makes the E36 325i look cheap.

You're obviously not using the proper benchmarks to determine "low cost". Seriously, there are a lot of cars that don't fit the low cost criteria, but end up in IT anyway. That's the beauty about having vague rules and guidelines, you can flex them quite a bit either way, to suit your agenda.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
01-10-2004, 10:57 AM
ITSRX7

Plus the complainers will always have material...

http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/rolleyes.gif

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
http://www.flatout-motorsports.com/i..._checkered.jpg
01-10-2004, 03:09 PM
BMW RACER

RE: E-36 WEIGHT. I built my '93 325, took out what I'm allowed to take out by the rules, put a good cage in it. I weigh over 210lbs with suit and helmet, starting a race with a very full fuel tank and I still need 25lbs of ballast to make weight at the end of the race. Sounds to me that the weight is fine, maybe even a little high. The BMW 325 is just a great car.
John Norris
01-10-2004, 06:20 PM
ITSRX7

John,

You could say the same thing about a Corvette Z06 if the minumum weight was about 2900lbs. Doesn't mean it belongs in ITS.

AB
01-10-2004, 09:54 PM
dspillrat

E36...good brakes,good handling,but undeniably best power to weight ratio,no defense for a 2-3 pound PTW advantage on a track with a straight section....... 100 pounds will help,135 would be better.......and add a wing

david spillman

Quote:

Originally posted by BMW RACER:
RE: E-36 WEIGHT. I built my '93 325, took out what I'm allowed to take out by the rules, put a good cage in it. I weigh over 210lbs with suit and helmet, starting a race with a very full fuel tank and I still need 25lbs of ballast to make weight at the end of the race. Sounds to me that the weight is fine, maybe even a little high. The BMW 325 is just a great car.
John Norris
01-10-2004, 11:00 PM
Bill Miller

Quote:

Originally posted by BMW RACER:
RE: E-36 WEIGHT. I built my '93 325, took out what I'm allowed to take out by the rules, put a good cage in it. I weigh over 210lbs with suit and helmet, starting a race with a very full fuel tank and I still need 25lbs of ballast to make weight at the end of the race. Sounds to me that the weight is fine, maybe even a little high. The BMW 325 is just a great car.
John Norris

I'm not sure how you arrive at the opinion that the weight may be a little high. Becaue you're 210 and need 25# of ballast? Supposedly, driver weight is figured to be 180#, on average (at least that's the number that gets used when they spec cars). We went through this a few months back, IIRC, at 210#, you're pretty close to what the average was here.

Anyway, from what you've said, you could put a 135# driver in your car, w/ the max. 100# ballast, and make weight. Or you could put a 235# driver in your car w/ no ballast, and make weight. Using only this data, seems that the weight is pretty much spot on. Now, if you want to talk about the power that the car makes for that weight...

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608