The key would be to make this truly a stock class. Realistically, how could what goes on in Showroom Stock be prevented? Getting engines sealed from the manufacturers is probably not going to happen. Is there another way to get the engines sealed?
What's involved in testing spring and shock rates? Is that something which is viable to be tested at the track?
It can only be prevented by rules enforcement by someone with the time and stones to make it stick. But at the end of the day there is NOTHING to keep someone from spending all kinds of green even on little racing cars.
When we went to Monza in '87, we watched the Renault R5 GT Turbos run. There was a guy who had four of them painted up with identical numbers, loaded in the back of a transporter like cartridges in a magazine. One was wadded up in a fenced impound area, one was racing, and two were in reserve.
I'll believe that the Polo is here when I see one!
KK
If SCCA just puts them in SSC and lets the current cars expire. That solves the class issues.
The only right way to keep them under spec is to do what the pros do. Roll them on a dyno at the track, seal the pieces and ECU. Have the owners sign a build sheet stating the actual prep level of the power train. If ever the car shows to be outside of the build sheet, eternal damnation.
Keeping these tall cars on low grip tires will reduce the need for monster springs. I doubt that any of these can run DOT zero without tipping over. (Only the Mini, whose chassis is clearly superior).
Coming up with a spec wheel rate for these cars is really easy. All are strut front. The required spring rate is just a few calculations.
If SCCA Pro had any nads they would spec them now and run them at some pro venues this year, adjusting the class as they go. Reward weight??
Alas , govern by commitee. erosion happens faster. IMHO,MM
Right, so you are going to have to create a class for them either way. It's either SSD or call it 'Spec B'. Keep it tight, not too many cars - maybe 6 different models. Spec classes are the most successful.
But if you keep the rules so that the cars can double dip in IT, you will have an advantage there.
And what the SCCA has never demonstrated in Club racing is the willingness to actually let something die.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyinglizard
Seal the motors, let Enterprises run it and watch it succeed. Otherwise it's just another flop.
Allowed the removal of the interiors. Why?
Not for us,if my kid cant drive it to school.
Np reason to allow gutting the inside. poor choice. Can I tell you what I relly think??
I sent a letter, asking for sealed engines and 140 TW tires. KISS. and let it work.
The weights are too low without gutting also.
"Camber" section should say and/or slotting of the strut /knuckle.
MM
Showroom Stock and Touring classes are, or at least should, be structured to take advantage of factory support. Really without that support the classes for new relatively expensive cars do not make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyinglizard
B Spec is based on a consensus agreement from those manufacturers. SCCA is working with these companies to make the rules universal. I honestly think you are looking at the wrong class for super cheap racing.
What Dick said. There's NO reason to think that racing any new car is going to be cheaper than racing a sensibly old IT car.
EDIT - now what the manufacturers ought to do is implement a program to spread their support thinly over lots of racers, rather than heavily subsidizing just a couple each. Then we would have the makings of something very big.
K
I talked to Mazda. They said that SCCA made the rules.
How many letters were sent to SCCA to get these cars going? Maybe NASA will do a better job. It could be "Renault cup",al over again. The best racing in history.
The weights are about 200# too low at my estimation.
Think of the marketing potential of the car being driven to the track and home again. There are lots of college kids that could be driving these around.
We have plenty of race cars already.This was just going to be a cool transport and occasional racer.
That is not entirely true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyinglizard
You're living in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyinglizard
Seriously. Go buy a $16K car, put $4K of safety gear in it and then daily drive AND race it?
You just can't do that anymore. Makes no sense.
And if you really want to, who would buy a new car as opposed to a built race car for less than half the money?
:shrug:
Dicks right, new cars are $$, and they get wrecked. Manufacturer involvement is key in this category.
I don't know many people who would drive a wheel to wheel race car to the track and home again. HPDE events and maybe even time trial guys, but I think few guys would drive to the track and back in a wheel to wheel race car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyinglizard
Yeah like "body in white" cars from ford, honda, and mazda would be a nice start.Quote:
Originally Posted by lateapex911
To be fair, I commuted to and from the University of Washington the entire last year of my bachelor's degree program in our Renault Cup Alliance.
To prove a point - and because we sort of didn't have another option - we also drove it from Seattle to the last IMSA weekend at Riverside, CA. We had to rotate the rear torsion bars to raise the back end enough that it didn't drag on the ground with the spare tires, tool box, tent and sleeping bags. And two people. We took enough cash to know that we could buy Greyhound tickets to get home if the car got bent but that was the extent of our contingency plan.
Oh, to be young and stupid again... :)
The funny PS is that we caught a wicked tailwind down around Sacramento and got 50+ mpg for most of a tank.
K
...and I competed in three years of National Club racing in Showroom Stock A -- while attending college *and* delivering pizzas nightly -- all in my sole car, a 1987 Shelby CSX. All three years I not only drove the car to and from all National events across Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas with tires and tools stuffed into the the back of the car (along with a full interior), I also drove it round-trip each of those three years from north central Texas to the SCCA Runoffs at Road Atlanta, GA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knestis
So, now you do know a couple of guys who would drive a wheel to wheel race car to the track and home again...you do what ya gotta do... - GA
Dick. Mazda speed said that" SCCA made the rules". That is a quote. talked to them thurs , last week. We also have a SM, and are in the soft loop. That is simply what the man said.
As far as SCCA being member driven, it really is not at all. The Mini is still in HS for solo , what does that tell you?
The 1.6 and 1.8, SM, has no chance with the 99s .( as a result,many of the 1.6 are @ NASA. )
SCCA needs to listen to the members to be successful. The future brings younger members, we need to change with the times, a lot faster than we have in the past, IMHO.
We have driven IT cars to the track and around town many times. Funny how if it runs on the street, it runs pretty well on the track, without minor problems. Also drove ITB golfs and Roccos to the ice races. I run welded diffs on most of the faster VWs now, and that kinda takes out of the street friendly set.
Many SSC cars are driven around town and often to the track. Joining the AAA +, might be a good idea for sure. MM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Amy
Add another guy who's driven the race car to the track. My first year. For my first school, it was all going well, until a guy spun on the banking. We approached two wide, I went low, my competitor went high. The spun and stopped car let go of his brakes. One totaled car 300+ miles from home. Two wheels left to roll it on. Got my license though. Later that season, I drove the replacement car 400+ miles to a track and had a stock motor (rotary) spin it's stator gear. Poof, rattle rattle. Rented a car to get home. From the middle of nowhere, and paid thru the nose. When I added the moneys I spent to recover and get the hulks home, and the extra time and trips, I could have bought a trailer....and actually brought the proper spares and tools needed to race effectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyinglizard
People go to races, to win...especially people who pay over $20K just for the basic car...they aren't going to "Drive to the track" on the race rubber and pile the tent and tools inside a mini car.
Today, I can not imagine doing any of that. Not because I'm old or lazy, but because it's just too difficult to do legally. While my cars were registered, they sure weren't legal...they were race cars! Today, I couldn't drive down my block without getting arrested. My first year racing was a long time ago. Times have changed.
It just doesn't make sense from a financial and legal risk. CAN it be done? well sure, but....
sighQuote:
Originally Posted by Flyinglizard
Well the man is mistaken, mostly.
B Spec is a result if Mazda and Honda working together and then trying to gain other manufacturer interest. The basic concept was to have identical specs across sanctioning bodies. The overall rule concept including the interior gutting is part of the original plan from the manufacturers.
Also part of the concept is to have an independent third party spec shocks and springs and make other minor adjustments for competitiveness. That has been slow to happen and members were clamoring to get these cars classed so SCCA wrote the rules on these final items. The CRB has been very sensitive not to make rules that are in conflict with the manufacturer’s agreement and it has required a lot of shuttle diplomacy.
It has been 19 months since I was first briefed in on B-Spec and others in the club were working on this long before that, please do not think for a minute that any of these decisions come lightly.
So...anyone here still interested in B-Spec? World Challenge just announced three races for the class in 2012, rumors from Grand Am, and quite a bit of manufacturer involvement so far.
Seems like the perfect class for me. Cheap (after the initial car purchase and build), the pro series specifically Grand Am mentioned no pro drivers allowed, so it's a good stepping stone if you want to move up and affordable racing at any level whether it's SCCA club racing or World Challenge.
I just noticed there will be "T4" for B-Spec cars in 2013 I believe? I saw the Mazda 2 at the ARRC, fastest lap was a 1:51. It looked quick in the corners. This really has my interest.