Any hope in low speed corners?

95 Neon, twincam, ground control camber plates, 600 frt 700 rear, Konis, 24mm front 21mm rear bars, Toyo 205/50 15 RA1s. I can beat the Civis Si's I race against, providing I get a decent start and can outdrag them to turn 1. Then, all I have to do is not make any mistakes for 20 minutes. :D The car progresses from slightly loose to slightly tight on a hot day, 20 minute sprint, and feels very nice, as quick as any of my competitors through third gear corners. Is there any hope of getting a 2650 lb 104" wheelbase Neon to rotate in slow turns like a 2250 lb Civic without making it suicide at high speed? Any and all suggestions welcome, other than building a new car.:rolleyes:

Edit: I just looked around a bit- the Eibach rear is 19mm, but looks adjustable. The Addco rear is 7/8"- I think thats the Mopar perf unit I have on the other car.

Back off on the front spring rate to 500 or maybe 550, get rid of the Toyo's they last great but do not give you enough forward bite which lends the car to push slightly. I have been running the Kumho's and they really seam to work well on my neon although mine is a SOHC and at 2450lbs.

If I only had your problem!!
I will be very interested in seeing replies to your thread.
With no disrespect to you, I might suggest racing at Roebling Road,,there are NO slow corners there.
My 22mm front bar negates any attempt to use 2nd gear, anywhere, as wheelspin leaves me sitting while everyone else goes merrily on down to the next corner.
Just Sayin' thats all,
CM

I might also suggest going to the Eibach rear sway bar, I have one but I am not sure the mm but it is much bigger then the stock 21mm. You can also play with your tire pressure. Check front to back tire pressure before and after the run. It sound like you might have good grip up front in the start and after your tires get really hot that is going away. Also what is you camber & toe settings. With Hoosiers I ran 2.5 degrees negative camber up front with 1/8" toe out on each side. Of course this can all depend on the track you are running.

Darryl,
Do you run less neg camber with the Kumhos?

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Originally Posted by wcmcarlos

Darryl,
Do you run less neg camber with the Kumhos?

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Yes I have backed it off to 1.5 degees negative in the front and about 1 in the back. I was told the Kumho's do not like anything over 1.5 because they were designed to actually roll over on the corner for best performance.

Which Kumhos? A friend of mine has 710s on a fat Golf-93? and they seemed to hold up pretty well. He isn't as prepped suspension wise as I am, so I was quite a bit faster than him. I suppose moving to a 7' wheel with 225s might help maintain over a longer race, but I have a stack of the stock 6x 15" wheels, and a bucks a buck. I stuck my head under the car today and realized I have the suspension techniques 19mm rear bar on this one- the 21? 22?mm Mopar performance bar is on my ministock car. I may mount a search for an Eibach if its bigger. If you are interested, bring up Google Earth and search Race City Speedway in Calgary, and Gimli motorsports park north of Winnipeg. You will see my problem areas. Camber is a real compromise for me, because Race City is biased towards lefts, but the entry onto the straight is a 2nd gear right hander. I am having some wheelspin issues there, so more rf camber is kind of a bad situation.

Suggest be careful mounting Kumho 710's, they do not mount on narrow wheels as easily as Toyos.
205's were difficult on 6" , so 225's would be just that much harder.
Use the wheels one has on hand is cost saving deal.
On ITA car, put spare back in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wcmcarlos

...I might suggest racing at Roebling Road,there are NO slow corners there....

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There are when I drive there. :D

(I got a million of 'em!)

Keep the front springs, run less front bar.

What are your pressures (starting and hot)? Tire temps?

What bushings?

Alignment settings?

Driving style?

I would suggest against the 225 tire on a 6" wheel, or you will see an increase in handling issues...

yes...tire temps and pressures seem the culprit here

do you trailbrake? that will make it rotate in slow speed corners... just watch that brake release when you really bury the car into the corner :eek:


edit: o yea, and does it push on the way in or out of the slow corners or both?

CRallo:
Trailbraking is next on my list of skills to hone. Most of my autocross experience going back to the early 80s was in a Camaro, which, due to a combination of lousy pedal feel, major weight, good exit power and driver inability , REALLY hated turning while the brakes are applied. Anyway, I get to roadrace the red Neon 3-4 times a year, but I run a white Neon in ministock at the local 1/3 mile paved oval 12 times a summer, and I'm changing lines and corner entries and trailbraking as much as I can there to try to get the old neural pathways in place. I know it works, as I have accidentally gone into corners "wrong" and come out the other end faster-I imagine most of you can relate. Convincing my braking foot that it works....:shrug: Push from the middle out, I would say.

Shelbyracer:
I am going to play with bars a bit next chance I get. Pressures front 40ish cool, generally gain 5-8 psi on a 20 minute session, rears startout 35ish, gain 3-5 psi. Bushings are Suspension techniques poly bushings everywhere front, rusty seized bolts with stock rubbers rear. That is on the list to complete. Alignment is 3 ish degrees camber front, 2ish rear, 1/16 to 1/8 toeout front, not sure rear because of the rusty bolts etc. Also on the list. Driving style- comfortable in traffic, with an exagerated belief in the old "slow in fast out" mantra. Sir Stirling Moss without the talent, shall we say... The 225s would be part of a change to lighter wider wheels. My wallets happy for now with the 205s and 6" wheels.

All of the above needs to be explored. Sadly, I'm 7 hours from the closest track, 10 hours from the next, and 3-4 races a year is as good as it can get for me for now. I also usually travel alone, or with one handicapped buddy for crew so it makes for difficult testing sessions. I usually make a list of things to try, but for now, to be honest the car works better than I had expected, so I'm concentrating on my own techniques- took me 2 1/2 track hours last time out, but I finally got to the braking point for turn one that I KNEW all along was the right place. Cowardice and bad habits, man- a hard combination.:eek:

Adjust your tire pressures. With the Spec Neon setup we run the Toyos at 35 psi front and 40-42 psi rear. The higher pressures in the rear help with rotation.

I would also dial out some of the camber in the rear - 1 degree negative max.

Well I hope you are not asking a Macpherson Strut car to handle like a SLA car are you? All Neons struggle in slower corners. I have laid it out before, but I'll throw it out there again what I use.

225's up front on 7" wheels
205's rear

Hoosier R6 or A6 depending on the conditions

550 lbs on the front
700 lbs rear

22 mm bar front
22 mm bar rear

3.5 to 4.5 camber front
.8 to 1.5 camber rear

I will usually run between 0 and -1/8" of toe front and rear depending on the track.

I shoot for a 6-8 psi split front to rear on pressure with the higher pressure in the rear.

I run sphericals in all the front suspension points.

you can beat Hondas, but not in the corners

I would scrap the Toyos if your competition is on Hoosiers or Kumhos. You need lots of Camber for a Toyo to work well also though.

What tracks do you run?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rabbit07

Well I hope you are not asking a Macpherson Strut car to handle like a SLA car are you? All Neons struggle in slower corners. I have laid it out before, but I'll throw it out there again what I use.

225's up front on 7" wheels
205's rear

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Did the rules change? I thought you had to run same size front and rear? (getting old, maybe I don't remember)

Most everybody is on Toyos it seems, and I run Race City in Calgary and Gimli north of Winnipeg.