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I am new to SCCA racing and I have a question about rotating tires to get the longest service life. I am going to be running ITC with a Sirocco on Toyo tires. Is there a system of rotating tires to get the most out of them? I believe I understand the heat cycling of new tires but I am a little fuzzy after that. Thanks in advance for the input.
God Bless
Jack Weigand
God Bless
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http://www.jackweigand.com
Jack, the fronts take a beating in a FWD car. Just notice how much air pressure difference between the fronts and the rears. I usually rotate then front to back every session. The Toyo's can also be rotated left to right.
I had 6 heat cycles on my 205-55-14's last year, and rotated them every heat cycle, and they were still VERY good before I sold the entire 14" package.
P.S. These were shaved to 4/32". I'd only recommend a full tread set for rain tires. Sorry Joe.
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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 ITB GTI, GP for 2002
[This message has been edited by racer_tim (edited May 22, 2002).]
A full tread set of Toyos will last you a whole season +.
I race a GTI, and the rear tires hardly wear. Observe how the tires wear, if the RF wears on the inside and the LF wears on the outeredge, swap sides occasionally. On my car, the rear tires wear the most on the outer edges. You can swap front to back to keep the wear constant among the tires too.
Tim and Joe,
Thanks! I have 4 fairly worn tires, two fairly new and two stickers. They are all the shaved Toyos. I was not aware you could change rotation. I did notice they have left and right embossed on them. I am heading out for a test day at Pocono tomorrow and the information you gave me will be a big help. I was looking around at Pocono last weekend and noticed lots of tires with no tread showing at all. Do you go by performance in making a decision to scrap tires? I am amazed at all the little things you need to know just to get started, LOL! I hope the learning curve is not to steep.
God Bless
Jack Weigand
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http://www.jackweigand.com
I usually replace the tires when A: the cord starts to show through, B: you flat spot a tire, or they start to get "hard". I I try to push my thumbnail into the tire tread. Usually on the outside of the tread, since that's the area that usually takes the most beating, and see if I can depress the rubber. If I can't, these are "bricks" and are only used for practice and/or setting up the car.
The "Right" and "Left" on the tire is for full tread, being driven on the street. Since they are all shaved, there isn't any tread to worry about.
Good luck @ Pocono. I've never been there.
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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 ITB GTI, GP for 2002
Jack, the RA1 is a very well built and durable tire. I and other people I know have run them completely bald and reached cord several times during races. While nobody recommends running tires with cords, it has been done and the tires stayed together. I race in NASA which uses RA1s as a spec tire and everybody loves them. I do not know of one incident of tire failure due to Toyo construction. They last a long time (at least 2x Kumhos) and seem consistent throughout their life. I've got RA1 tires on my Capri that are very old and hard and I plan to test at Thunderhill this weekend. I want to compare them to my new Kumho Victoracers.
BTW, the RA1s work well at higher pressures as compared to the Kumhos. During a long and hot race, I'd come in and 40 to 43psi wasn't uncommon and the tires stuck well. I find that the Kumho Victoracers start to lose their grip after 35psi.
One other thing I should mention is that the RA1s seem to start losing their grip just before getting cord. I suspect that Toyo puts on a interface layer between the cords and final rubber.
Good luck.
Tim, I and many other people have run 8/32 tread Toyos in the dry without problems. Of course, shaved is faster and recommended. Driving 100% on full tread tires can overheat them.
I've been helping out some new racers and I got them to drive one of their cars with a set of full tread RA1 tires. They were amazed how predictable the transition was when the tire begins to lose traction. They were able to drive the car to the limit, experiment with the car at the traction limit at a lower speed that would have been possible with shaved tires.
I've used full tread Toyos in three of the last four 12 hour NASA enduros at Thunderhill. It's a long race and most of the drivers including myself drive at 90% or so and the full treads usually last the whole 12 hours. The following year, I have a perfectly shaved set of Toyos for the shorter races.
Jack, since you are beginning, you might think about trying this when you are ready to practice car control at the limit w/o crashing :-)
Another common thing that NASA GTI Cup drivers do is to run shaved tires in the front and full tread tires in the rear. The spec suspensions are such that the handling balance is about right. At some point, the rears will have worn enough to work well on the front. You mention that you are a beginner, so depending on your budget and your car's setup, this may or may not be an option. In any case, get as much track time as you can, drive and stay safe.
Good luck.
Thanks so much! I appreciate the input. The tires I was told were pretty bad actually have tread showing so they are very useable, that is good. I will run some tomorrow and do a tire change to see if I can feel the difference. I am an former asphalt stock car racer so I do have a little feel for a car. It's the turning right and shifting that slows me down, LOL! I'll give a report after the test tomorrow. Thanks again for helping a rookie.
God Bless
Jack Weigand
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http://www.jackweigand.com
Test day report.
Test day was great. 80 degrees, sunny and I brought the car home in one piece, LOL! It did go exceptionally well, even on the old tires. Here is what I did.
10 laps on old tires.
4 laps on new stickers.
10 laps on old tires again
6 laps on old tires.
The old tires were fine. I had one observation about the new tires. The tri oval at Pocono is the fastest turn. 4th gear at 7000, I forget my gear ratio. With the old tires I could actually feel the car sliding up the track, kind of a rough feel. When I put the new tires on that went away, smooth and no perceived drift. Lap time were within a few tents between old and new tires.
All in all I was as pleased as I could be. I would have no problem racing on the old tires just as most said.
Again thank you all for the input, it was a big help.
God Bless
Jack Weigand
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http://www.jackweigand.com
Jack,
Sorry I wasn't able to make it to Pocono to see you. As far as the Toyos go, they're a good, durable tire. They don't have the grip of the Hoosiers, and it's been too long, but I don't think they have the grip of the Kumhos.
I ran them on my old ITA MR2, and you can flip them inside-out when they start to wear, so you get more life out of them.
One thing I'll say about full-tread Toyo's, is that they make a good intermediate tire. They won't work as well as Dirt Stockers in a full wet race, but they work very well on slightly wet and drying tracks, and you won't kill them in 5 laps if the track starts to dry out.
We ran Toyos on the P2 car that I crew-chiefed to 3rd at this year's 24hours of Moroso. Some of the tires came in w/ significant amounts of not just cord, but steel belt showing. No failures!
They're a great tire to start on as they will work, and last.
Best of luck, and welcome to the VW racing crew!!!
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
Thanks Bill. I did look for you at Pocono. I am glad to be with the VW croud, dang I have so much to learn. It is great fun having a new challenge set in front of you. I had some shifter problems yesterday and I need to get them sorted out. I lost 1st gear and it would not downshift to 3rd from 4th. I was told it might be a linkage problem so I am off to sort that out. Thanks again for all of the input.
God Bless
Jack Weigand
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http://www.jackweigand.com