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Way back 25-30 years ago a v8 race motor would last 40-50 races then you rebuilt your tired low compression smoke puffing motor back into a tiger, now, 8 to 12 weekends if your lucky on a stock rebuilt IT motor. Is it the quality of parts that has changed or is it some other factor that im missing, its not rpms, its not my 60 year old engine builder, he's like a rock, unchanged in his ways, so what is different?
Inflation.......... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
Shorter life for more dollar$
Have Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David
Our societal shift to the cheap/wholesale/economy mentality has driven all the true craftsmen out of business.
We've done 25+ races on an IT motor and set track records on the 25+ race, so there's quality out there. Just not many willing to pay for it anymore.
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katman
Affluence and competitiveness.
We as a society have enough disposabal income to do such things. We can afford to replace perfectly good parts because new ones will give a competitive edge.
I doubt the part quality is worse. It's probably much better. But, there are those who will spend more and more to get less and less competitive edge. When one person does it, a bunch of others do as well. The level of affordability may be argued, but I'll argue the fact that we are racing at all is a sign of affluence. I mean, we are spending hard earned dollars to effectively go out and play with our friends, only on a more intense and more expensive level than we did years ago.
We spend the money because "all the other kids are doing it." Some of us don't. Some of us will squeeze every last bit of life out of a part that won't cause thousands in damage if it fails. We'll be happy just to be out there and we'll have fun racing against other folks who are like thinking. And when I say "we" I don't mean me, or you, I mean our community.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
We have gone well over 50 on a routine rebuild without any issues.
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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers
Why are you only getting 12 weekends on a rebuilt motor? What is keeping you from using it for the 13th weekend?
Sounds to me like it is either a british/italian car, or really crappy rebuild.
Alan
As an development engineer for a one of our domestic automakers, I'm a little defensive when I answer this - but here's my 2 cents:
I would have to suggest that the knowledge and precision of today's engineering allows us not to OVERbuild for the general consumer. The result is that, when applied to the higher stressed environment in racing, parts wear faster and break more often than in the cast iron, overbuilt days of yore.
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Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61
I will agree that some engines these days are not overbuilt for the some of the general consumer. For example, the engines in the Mazda Proteges and Mazda6 are junk internally for racing applications. Admittedly a little more high end, but little to none of the internals of either of these engines are/will be used for World Challenge competition.
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Bob Pinkowski
Atlanta Region SCCA
OPM Autosports
ITS Honda Prelude (for sale)
Okay now the truth is starting to flow, what is it about mazda bearing material that has cause my last 2 breakdowns I wonder.
Can't help on the bearings.
What I was referring to on the Mazdas is that the crank, rods and the sort are fine for the daily driver and will go many miles, but are pretty weak pieces. They will not withstand the kinds of stress generated by a full-on racing engine nor will they put up with a lot of boost in a tubocharged engine. The post by dyoungre explains it perfectly.
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Bob Pinkowski
Atlanta Region SCCA
OPM Autosports
ITS Honda Prelude (for sale)
You answered your own question http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gifQuote:
Originally posted by 7'sRracing:
...years ago a v8 race motor would last 40-50 races then you rebuilt your tired low compression smoke puffing motor back into a tiger"
"years ago you could get away with racing a tired, low compression smoke puffing motor"
Like others have said, more people are willing to spend the extra money for small returns. Not willing to give up any little advantage to the other guy. Got to keep that stuff fresh.
Haven't your recent engine failures been RPM related? I got 45+ hours out of my 12A, NEVER spun it past 8K.
Tell Pablo (I'm guessing) not to be so agressive on his timing and a/f stuff. Back the rpms down a little. Give up 5Hp or so and drive it for a season or two. The time you spend on the track dialing in YOU and the CAR will make a bigger difference than that last 5hp.
Ah, yes! And while that sounds like a bad thing, it has it's virtues. The domestic manufacturers are building to a target now as you say, and not overbuilding....the old "bigger and heavier is better" mentality, and the result is more appropriate items. No extra weight flopping around causing poor ride quality, bad handling, excessive wear of other components (which are, in turn similarly overbuilt), and poor fuel economy.Quote:
Originally posted by dyoungre:
I would have to suggest that the knowledge and precision of today's engineering allows us not to OVERbuild for the general consumer.
I always chucled when I looked a t a Honda ash tray versus an American version a few years ago. The Honda was invariably lighter, bit operated more smoothly and felt better. The Honda was always just a few parts, but did more than the American version with more parts . The Honda was plastic, the American metal (and always had surface rust). And the Honda always was easy ro reinsert after cleaning where the same operation resulted in swearing with the American version.
In short, the Honda was engineered more elegantly, and I respected that.
Finally, the American firms are coming around to elegant "less is more" engineering, but it has taken some time.
(no slight to you Dave, or Ford, I'm mostly talking about the past, and I think it didn't reflect on any individual, but more of an institutional and management style.)
Yeah, I doubt we'll ever see a block again used for everything from a 283 (I think) to a 400. Talk about yer over engineering!Quote:
Originally posted by lateapex911:
Ah, yes! And while that sounds like a bad thing, it has it's virtues. The domestic manufacturers are building to a target now as you say, and not overbuilding....the old "bigger and heavier is better" mentality, and the result is more appropriate items.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
Daryl A. pointed out my failures happened a high rpm's, well yes they did but ill be putting all those same parts from mazda comp into my EP engine and expecting it to run all day at the same rpm's that my ita engine died at after hitting just a few times. I had new maz comp race bearings and had it balanced by the same guy that balances every other so-cal race rotary. Im not real confident about the whole situation. To be honest if I dont see an exceptable level of reliablity this year ill be selling off the mazdas and buying SPO taurus or the like.
[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited May 25, 2004).]
Who is building these grenades for you? We saw 68 national races on a GT motor with 14-1 compression 1.6L 9000RPM 192HP and then freshened it because the leakdown was over 10%
Since then it has done 12 nationals and is going fine. An IT motor should last 5 seasons or more including Enduros before it needs attention.They just arent that highly stressed!
Do you dyno these motors and shift at the proper RPM? Something just isnt right.
Dick Shine
No offense taken; while I take pride in our products, I also try to stay objective. We had a powertrain teardown once, where we weighed every single component in a Toyota Corolla versus an Escort. Not only was the Corolla lighter, but almost EVERY component was lighter. I was amazed at the attention to detail on things like the alternator housing. It really is a different philosophy: at Toyota, when a part fails structurally, they try to reduce the stress on the part. At Ford, when it fails...we make it thicker.
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Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61
Dave, I have often tried to explain just that to people, and they often look at me like I have two heads. "Why not just make it bigger? Bigger is stronger", they'd say.
Discussing corporate philosophies, engineering elegance, as well as corporate responsibility, (if you can make an item that will do the same job with less material and resources, you should) ended up with me being called a commie or similar!
Back in the eighties when no American manufacturer could build a car that could hold a candle to an Accord or Camry, I always wondered why one of the big three didn't just BUY an Accord and copy it from the tire tread to the con rods to the antenna tip, changing only the trim, a fender and the badges....at least they would have gotten within threee years of the Japanese! But alas, someone thought the K car was a better idea. (I know, the idea fails to take into account material procurment issues, raw material quality, and labor items, but....)
Anyway, thanks for a great look through the keyhole.
Summer is here...lets get that 7 of yours on the track. (after the wedding if you must!)
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
A lot of the cultural issues come down to one thing: the bulk ownership of Japanese automotive companies are by banks, which are interested in long term return on capital investment. US automotive companies are slaves to the stock market, which in the 90's said that you want 0 capital, and only by stamping your 'CocaCola' brand onto a product someone else actually designs and manufactures. How do you ever get investment into a product that won't have more than 5% ROS, like any dot-com. How quickly times change.
A wonderful thing happened at my company recently: a relatively young Bill Ford is running the ship, of a company whose stock is still controlled by a single family. He is putting people in high places that are NOT about to retire, with the intent that there will not be any changes at the top for a long time - longer than a product cycle! Let's see if it works.
Another disconnect is the 'Webster' definition of quality versus the public's use of the word quality - which really combines both quality and reliability and craftsmanship. Thanks to warranty cost, it is easy to push for a 'quality' improvement. It is very hard to put a $ value on 'reliability' when the company will never get a direct cost return - just a few lost customers when the product fails at 75K miles.....
I hope to be at the July NHIS race (18th, right?) Hope to see you there.
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Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61
Wait, what??? You guys rebuild your IT motors??? Wow! Next you'll be telling me you don't use the same set of tires for 4 years.Quote:
Originally posted by 7'sRracing:
... now, 8 to 12 weekends if your lucky on a stock rebuilt IT motor....
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-Scott Gallimore
-ITC #88 Pulsar