Petite LeMans Passing Penalty

At this event yesterday at Road Atlanta, a penalty was imposed on a Ferrari passing a Porsche. The Ferrari was right on the bumper of the Porsche approaching the turn, and pulled inside the Porsche at about the turn-in point. He overlapped him by about half a car length when they made contact as the Porsche drove his line to the apex. Both cars sustained enough damage to require immediate repairs. The Ferrari was given a stop-and-go penalty. Although I thought he was pretty aggressive, it looked like "just racing" to me.

1) Would this pass be legal/illegal under the GCR? Please explain why or why not.
2) How do YOU decide whether to make a pass like this, given the increased likelihood of MTM contact?
3) Do you have difficulty seeing that the passer is there if you're the passee?

If the Ferrari was in the wrong I'll have to look up the pro spec-Miata driver that bashed in the side of my car on test day and retract my apology.

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Marty Doane
ITS RX7 #13
CenDiv WMR

My personal rule of thumb is that when deciding whether to make a pass or not, you need to:

1) Get far enough alongside the car so that he can see you before he starts to turn in. Usually this means you need to be almost completely along side.

2) You cannot carry so much speed into the corner that both cars cannot make it through the corner side by side. In other words, if you charge inside, you must leave enough room on the outside so that the other driver is not forced off the track.

In my opionion, if you can't accomplish those two things then it is an unsportsmanlike and unskilled pass.

Without having seen the pass...

1) It is the responsibility of both competitors to provide racing room for each other.

2) It is the responsibility of the overtaking driver to execute a safe pass.

While the penalty was probably based on #2, the Porsche driver should have known the Ferrari was there and should have left racing room (that's what the mirrors are for).

Tough situation. Without having seen it (or witness reports to read), I can't make any judgement on the Steward's decision.


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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

Having not seen the pass....
You said the Ferrari pulled inside at about the turn-in point. Seems kinda late to start a pass in my opinion. By then the Porsche is already committed to his line and speed, and probably couldn't have changed if he wanted to.

If you don't have your front wheels by the slower car by the turn in point, it's called "pass or crash". Success of the pass depends on the lead car seeing the passing car AND leaving room.

If you were to define "gray area" this would be used as an example.

But, the answer is, (and this has been debated here before), ....it depends...

......in NASCAR, if you have a bumper under the guy, even after turn in (remember the turn in on an oval can be extended), you will have the corner. Of course, you must leave racing room on the exit if he can hang in there.

........in SCCA of old, the passing car needed to be halfway alongside to establish 'rights' to the corner. Where that overlap was to be established by was always the issue. Some corners are so deep that you can really do a lot to get an overlap after turn in, and by the apex.

.....in SCCA of new, the responsibilty has shifted more to the car being passed, although it is still shared. Now, it seems, you merely have to establish an overlap to earn the rights to inside racing room. Of course, as in the previous GCR definition, the passer always needs to leave room on the outside at the exit if the passee can hang in there.

That said, there are a ton of other factors:
- is the passee inexperienced?
(and therefor is he....
: easy to intimidate?
: or not watching his mirrors?)

-Is the passing car dramatically faster? Another class? Lapping? If so, the passee, if not involved in a race of his own, or a same class and similar speed car recovering from a spin or something similar, and trying to keep from losing a lap, should yeild, if the passer is within range.

Is this pro racing? or amatuer? One would expect the pros to have to work harder, and the hacks like us to be more 'gentlemanly'. Of course, and I'll admit to this, I've been less than 'gentlemanly' when I've been held up in traffic and a guy close to my speed has tried to take advantage! By the same token, I try to jump out of the way when I know the guy behind is soundly faster.

Each incident is different, and if in doubt, contesting the position usually hurts the defender worse, as he gets spun.

In an enduro, such as that, I think it would have been better to watch the mirrors and live to fight after the next pit stop. From your description, it sounds as though the officials were harsh.

To answer your question, I feel the pass would be legal under the GCR, as the GCR doesn't stipulate the degree of overlap anymore, and from your description, there was significant overlap well before the apex.

How do I decide?? If I think I can get away with it.... AKA ...using my judgement and taking into account all the things I mentioned above.

flame away!

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Marty, I'll answer question #2 with another question. What is the pass (or defending the pass) worth given the $$$ it may cost one or both of you to repair (and ill will) vs. what the financial and personal gains may be? I know in the heat of the battle, I've not done a good cost analysis at times(and regretted it), but we don't have much time to make that decision either. In the big picture, we are just amateur racers racing for a wall hanging, not professionals where a position or two means the difference between million dollar endorsements or full-time employment. We are all driving at our limits, and occasionally make mistakes. However, the risks that a person is willing to take should be tempered by whether it is 1) a practice day, 2) qualifying, or 3) race. Obviously, the higher risk passes and defenses should not be taken during #1. During #3, as a passee you should be more aware of the aggressive pass attempts and as a passer you must be able to more precisely control your car. Come spring we can talk more at Grattan.

Thanks, you've all been a big help. With one race weekend under my belt I need all the help I can get. During that weekend I chased another car for about 20 laps, catching him in most of the corners and losing him in the straights. The only passing opportunities I could see would have been like I described above, and I'm glad I didn't try it.
I'll have to learn to watch my mirrors better after I turn in so Mr. Pro SM doesn't get me again.

John, really looking forward to racing you. I expect to see you at least once each race, hopefully not twice. Make sure to wave as you go by. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

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Marty Doane
ITS RX7 #13
CenDiv WMR