Hey - how 'bout that Quad4?
Kirk
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Hey - how 'bout that Quad4?
Kirk
Over 200 horse W41 engines from Olds are ~$2000 and though the car is a killer in power - and for long tracks would wipe out anything shy of a Mustang A/S car, it has poor quality and it is hard to find road racing parts for them...
Otherwise - if you can make it handle and keep it together you are looking pretty good I think.
Weakest link Rear Bearings, strongest advantage, 2.3 ltr W41...
Acheiva SCX and Old Calais 442...
K
Does the allowable modification to use Saturn rear disc brakes help enough to be worth while?
...that seems like an odd allowance. Where did that come from?
Kirk
Not sure... John Herman seems to know the most - he didn't mention anything about that at all.
He did mention that you should be OK with revised GM sourced Bearings and the brakes the car came with...
John seems to have built his own car and as he worked on the assembly line for the Model seems to know more than I thought he would.
He says that the W41 was never really a factory delivered Long Block and in fact you sort of have to cobble them together with an HO block and head, and after-assembly W41 Cams and CPU...
These cars are fast and they do need allot of work, but the benefit seems to outweigh the downsides...
If you go out to www.teamscr.com they actually have video of racing at Mid Ohio racecourse. A 92 Saturn SC against the Calais, the Calais makes a fool of him on the straight, then gets whacked under braking and transition into madness.
So, it would be like Driving a Mustang, hurry up to slow down. But.. for $1000 for the car, $1,500 for a cage and $3,000 for a complete new W41 assembled by yourself and ~$3,000 in non-standardized, non-kit form, do-it-yourself suspension spread over 2 or 3 years doesn't sound so bad eh...
John Herman has figured this car out and has some advice, though he hasn't spilled the beans on the spring rates or sway bars yet...
There are others too. Jason Fitzpatrick bought an ex-Firehawk car and won or broke all the time and another in the Midwest (red and White) wins on and off frequently.
Anyway, it's an interesting option.
Kieran
The W41 was a factory engine option, available from the dealer in its day. However, today the complete W41 engine is not available from GM's dealer service network. FWIW, the only differences between the 90-91 base Q4, HO, and W41 are cams and pistons. Heads, cranks, blocks, manifolds are all 100% identical.
Kirk, re the brakes. In my 2000 GCR on the spec line for Achieva, Calais and Grand AM it says you can use Saturn disc brakes on the rear.
Thanks for the advice John, very helpful and very thorough...
still kicking the idea around.
Is reliability really that big of an issue with these cars? Ok, wait, GM product, sorry... http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif Anyway, the Saturn brake thing is interesting. I havent been able to find any info on the stock brakes for the Olds. Are they adequate or pathetic??? Also, what is the race wieght of the car? At 190hp stock, you could alomst put off the engine rebuild until you get the suspension sorted. It would be sweet to have a compedative ITS car for less than 10k! I love the fact that its so unique too. Paint that bad boy like a late 60's Trans Am racer and lets rock!
Jive
Sorry RandallH - my question wasn't clear. I know where the rule "comes from" but was wondering what was behind its inception. It just seems so "inconsistent with the class philosophy", to allow parts off of a completely different model--are they a GM part number "supercession" or something?
K
Kirk,Quote:
Originally posted by Knestis:
Sorry RandallH - my question wasn't clear. I know where the rule "comes from" but was wondering what was behind its inception. It just seems so "inconsistent with the class philosophy", to allow parts off of a completely different model--are they a GM part number "supercession" or something?
K
You know, it's scarry how much you and I think alike. I remember seeing this in the GCR and it raised my eyebrows and made me scratch my head. I agree that it seems at cross purposes w/ 'class philosphy', and the only way I could rationalize it was that you couldn't get the stock brakes any more and the Saturn brakes were what the dealers were selling as replacements. Otherwise, I don't see how you call it anything but a 'competition adjustment'. Nah, couldn't be, there are no CA's in IT!
John, can you shed some light on why the Saturn brakes are allowed. Were the Saturns built on the same chassis as the Olds?
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
Ok, then Ive got another question. What about the 92-93 Achieva. I know the SCX model is the one that is supposed to be legal. Can you take a regular S or SC model and build the Quad 4 to SCX specs and be legal. The SCX model is RARE. If you can do that, what advantages/disadvantages would the Achieva have as compared to the Calais (aside from not being as UUUUUgly)? Thanks!
Jive
First the brake thing. I'm only vaguely familiar with where it came from. Basically though, when people first started racing (i.e. factory teams in IMSA, World Challenge, and SS) the Calais, most of these races were enduro races. The stock rear bearings were/are not up to that punishment. I started autocrossing my car in 1990, and would routinely trash the rear bearings after two autocross events! Somewhere along the line, individuals(?) petitioned SCCA to allow upgrading the rear bearings and allowing the Saturn disks. At one point the debate got so heated, the Calais and Achieva were prohibited from racing. Don't know much more than that. Performance wise, doesn't make any difference, except your wheels won't fall off during a race. As I've told everyone who has wrote me, if you decide to not upgrade the bearings, keep a close eye on them and only use GM new parts. The autostore parts are just cheap knock-offs and will not last long at all! Maintanence is easier on the disks. Remember, the weight split on this car is 65/35. So rear brakes don't do much. If you're trail braking these cars, the inside tire is usually dragging. This item was actually carried over from the car's spec line in SSA. The brake allowance never got its start in IT (I was the first 1990 IT Calais to race).
Achieva SCX, technically this should be changed to Achieva (all). The SCX is an option on the base Achieva's and is not a model of car (have an original window sticker to prove). Therefore, any Achieva can be turned into an SCX. For IT, just change the engine. The rest of the SCX package is fluff, and would be removed under normal IT prep. Keiran et al., the reason I know so much about these cars was I worked at the Q4 engine plant for 5 years, and then in the GM chassis engineering group (Calais/Achieva and their sisters) for 5 years. This group was seated next to the Q4 engine product engineers.
Achieva vs. Calais As mentioned earlier, I have been racing Calais a long time. Therefore, I have more Calais body panels, etc. I know where all the nuts and bolts go, how the dash wiring is laid out, etc. The Achieva is basically the same underbody. Brakes, engine, suspension pieces are identical except for a few minor items. Choose whatever you like the best. Durability, there are a few tricks on the right parts to buy, but I'll save that discussion until someone else starts racing one (due respect to Tom Fowler, JD Ellis). Don't worry, its nothing serious, just careful and smart shopping. For those of you who are scared off because no "kits" exist for suspension, etc., drop me a note and I can put something together for you which will bolt it.
[This message has been edited by John Herman (edited November 02, 2001).]
John-Quote:
Originally posted by John Herman:
I worked at the Q4 engine plant for 5 years, and then in the GM chassis engineering group (Calais/Achieva and their sisters) for 5 years.
So, you're a fellow Detroiter, then? Drop me a line at [email protected] and we'll chat!
I am an import racer. I have seen some domestic IT cars in the field over the years, however they all were not competitive. I would like to see something in the domestic market (besides a Neon) that could run up front and be reliable. So good luck fellows......
I seem to remember "Quad 442s" winning either firehawk or SS events in either 89 or 90 but I don't remember who ran them.
The Hacker brothers, Karl and Paul ran the IMSA Firehawk cars. Dave Jolly and Chuck Hemmingson ran the SCCA World Challenge cars. I believe Irv Hoerr ran an IMSA GT car. Dave Headley won SSA in 1990 with the Calais. I know there were many others, but those are the ones I remember.
I seem to remember the Hacker brothers moving to the Oldsmobiles after their days of running GT3 Rabbits.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
So can anyone tell me why the newer (92- ) grand am is not listed in the GCR, I mean the acheiva is which is the newer version of the calais, so why is the newer grand am not listed since the older one is, these two cars are essentially the same
Derek
Presumably because nobody has ever asked. There are lots of gaps in the years/models listed simply because a member must submit the request for classification - as newer models/years become eligible (by the age limit rule) they don't get added unless someone perceives that they offer a competitive advantage somehow...
Kirk
As long as we are talking about odd allowances how is it that the 'optional' W41 engine is spec'd instead of the base engine?
It came in the Olds... Ask John Herman - he worked for Olds in Detroit.
Hey, did anyone see the Beretta GTZ ITS ad in the classifieds section? It reminded me of this old thread. It was interesting, no? Anyway, I didnt see the Beretta listed in the ITCS as classified. Can someone shed some light on that? Also, how ARE the Calais/Grand Am racers doing these days? Any luck/success?
Jive
The GTZ is not classified yet, but im sure it would be not problem to classify this car. It is a much better looking option to the calais and acheiva, however, the GTZ only come with 180 hp, because it did not have the W41 cams. I have been considering building a gm quad 4 for ITS so i have done some research, if I am wrong feel free to correct me. I think the acheiva is the way to go its just hard to get past the ugly body.
i really need to know more about the quad 4 as i am having serious probs with my 92 achieva... it used to stall after comming off the highway and it would still tsart untill i put it in gear and it would stall right away, now it will tsall as soon as the engine warms and it wont start for about 20 mins... it stall just driving in town now plz someone tell me more about the quad 4 and what might be happening .....
Quote:
Originally posted by John Herman:
Achieva SCX, technically this should be changed to Achieva (all). The SCX is an option on the base Achieva's and is not a model of car (have an original window sticker to prove). Therefore, any Achieva can be turned into an SCX. For IT, just change the engine. The rest of the SCX package is fluff, and would be removed under normal IT prep. Keiran et al., the reason I know so much about these cars was I worked at the Q4 engine plant for 5 years, and then in the GM chassis engineering group (Calais/Achieva and their sisters) for 5 years. This group was seated next to the Q4 engine product engineers.
Definately the electronics.
Most likely a crank angle sensor or something that ends up with an open circuit at some point of the warm-up cycle.
I tend to agree with the electronics diagnosis. Are any engine codes being set? Try changing the crank position sensor, it's located on the front of the block near the oil filter. Follow the wiring down to it. Disconnect it by gently lifting up the small plastic locking tab. There is one bolt which needs a 10 mm socket to remove. You'll then need to persuade it out by rotating it back and forth and pulling. Its about a $15 part.
sounds like your tcc is gone out i have a 88 grand am with a 3spd tranny and i was told that the torque convertor clutch went out i dont know to much about it but there is a electronic plug on the top of the tranny if u disconect it it should be of some help if u have the quad 4 with the 3spd tranny i had the same problem it would get up to temp usually around 55 miles per hour id come to a stop and it would lock up and stall out after onpluging it it stoped stalling look down on the tranny and find a little plug that goes into the tranny it will be a funky color mine i think was buish in color unplug it and put a piese of tape over it that should do the trick
John,Quote:
Originally posted by John Herman:
Achieva vs. Calais As mentioned earlier, I have been racing Calais a long time. Therefore, I have more Calais body panels, etc. I know where all the nuts and bolts go, how the dash wiring is laid out, etc. The Achieva is basically the same underbody. Brakes, engine, suspension pieces are identical except for a few minor items. Choose whatever you like the best. Durability, there are a few tricks on the right parts to buy, but I'll save that discussion until someone else starts racing one (due respect to Tom Fowler, JD Ellis). Don't worry, its nothing serious, just careful and smart shopping. For those of you who are scared off because no "kits" exist for suspension, etc., drop me a note and I can put something together for you which will bolt it.
[This message has been edited by John Herman (edited November 02, 2001).]
I know this post is extremely old, but if you happen to see this message, could you drop me a line: [email protected]
I have some suspension related questions on a Calais.
Thank you,
Jason