Moral dilema

So, I noticed a comment in another thread suggesting that ITS become a claimer class.

Which got me thinking, what if what you 'claim' truns out to be illegal?

Well thats pretty theoretical, as we aren't about to go "claiming" in SCCA..... this year at least!

But.....what are the moral obligations, or what would you do if you bought a car for $15K (let's say), from a known guy, and you race it for a few races, then for some reason, you or your mechanic discover it's not too legal. Not washer botttle stuff either. Big time stuff. What do you do?

(I know it's buyer beware, up to you to ask the seller, etc, but let's say it was clearly an IT car, raced in IT and prepped by a shop that knows better, in other words the seller knew what you were buying)

So:
-The car was clearly raced in the configuration before you got it and won and placed in races.
-And you've scored some points in it too.

I've never bought a car (built them all) and the one I sold was all too legal, so I've never really thought about this.

What would you do?

Just curious...I haven't got one nor has a friend, and maybe it's never happened, but I imagine it could.

Jake,
I lived your example (I hope nobody assumes they know what car it was. I've had several and it's not the current one....).

I knew it had some issues but kept pealing back the onion. What can you do?? I just sucked it up and built a new engine. Trashing somebody isn't going to fix the situation and I didn't feel that I was intentionally deceived. The good thing that came out of it was Kessler built me a great engine and I was bettering the times of the illegal car. That's why swore I would always build my cars in the future. But then I founfd the Saturn and all that went out the window!! :lol: Live and learn......

Jake, I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at because the only moral dilemma I see is whether you continue to run the car in an illegal condition or not. If the buyer did not even ask about legality, much less get a representation of such, he has no recourse (or even room to gripe IMO) against the seller. Frankly, I think a lot of cars are bought because the buyer assumes that the seller put some "secret stuff" in it, so neither party gets very explicit about it. If you want an absolutely legal car you need to a representation in writing that the seller knows of no illegalities and the sale will be rescinded or he will pay you what it takes to make it legal if it is found to be illegal and it was, as you hypothesized, something that he would have known of. Not many sellers like that so the best you can probably do is check it out. Tell the seller you want a legal car and if there is any doubt about it, just say so and part ways, no-questions-asked.

We can even take this a few steps further...a bit extreme but something I've pondered on those long tows.

You decide to build your own car, but are certainly not an engine builder. So you do research and find a reputable shop that is familiar with SCCA's rules. You make sure to tell the builder that you want a legal engine. You even go do some further research to verify that the pistons that will be used are truly legal. Compression check is done after, and it's within the rules. Cool, you've got a well-built legal engine. Or do you? Yeah I know, I hear those helicopters beginning to start their engines. And one would hope that the engine builder wouldn't want to ruin their reputation.

For me; I would Spec in the sale that the car be legal. I would hold the person to it, and I would do my own inspection...

As for motor builds, we are trusting, and we have on the invoice that the motors are built to the max of the class specific rules.

Raymond

PS: Got ya, you thought we had the motors built in the Audi's.... yeah right!!! We do however spend lots and lots of $$$ on getting the AS motor built by someone...

PSS: Jeff, I think I might know the car from the past, and if I am right then you deserve a pat on the back for making things right before you raced the car. I felt bad for your purchase, but was happy to see it go into legal hands... That car ran a long time with a lot of questionables for way to long... Thank you again for doing the right thing!!!! True sportsmanship :)

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So, I noticed a comment in another thread suggesting that ITS become a claimer class.

Which got me thinking, what if what you 'claim' truns out to be illegal?

Well thats pretty theoretical, as we aren't about to go "claiming" in SCCA..... this year at least!

But.....what are the moral obligations, or what would you do if you bought a car for $15K (let's say), from a known guy, and you race it for a few races, then for some reason, you or your mechanic discover it's not too legal. Not washer botttle stuff either. Big time stuff. What do you do?

(I know it's buyer beware, up to you to ask the seller, etc, but let's say it was clearly an IT car, raced in IT and prepped by a shop that knows better, in other words the seller knew what you were buying)

So:
-The car was clearly raced in the configuration before you got it and won and placed in races.
-And you've scored some points in it too.

I've never bought a car (built them all) and the one I sold was all too legal, so I've never really thought about this.

What would you do?

Just curious...I haven't got one nor has a friend, and maybe it's never happened, but I imagine it could.
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Another option, my only option, race ITE. I'm just out to have fun anyway, and I want to gain experience. Yeah, sure anyone can throw money at the problem and fix it :lol: I know, I'd better get used to it http://images.bimmerforums.com/smilies/cashwallet.gif

James

Jake,
I'll say that the racing community is awful small, especially with the internet. If any car or engine want to rip people off, or build illegal cars or engines they do so at their own risk. Because sure as God made green apples someone will find out. I beleive you should not bad mouth people or businesses but if the subject comes up I will not lie and I will warn others about dealing with certain people and businesses. Some of the junk that I've seen sold to people and the way people will rationalize lying...this includes my BMW. The cream will always rise to the top and the shit will be at the bottom.

Worst case scenario:

You "claim" a car - then at the next race, the previous owner protests it for what he knows to be illegal.

I went through this. I bought a car from a person who raced it. It had a log book, had been raced for years and years and had only not been raced the previous year. I was a big newbie and had never even looked at a GCR and am just a trusting person over all. I had been told that it was "ready to race" so, that's what I did. I got home, put my seat in it and took it to the local tech man. Turns out the cage was illegal! So illegal in fact that it had NEVER been legal! Tube size was to small. Makes you wonder how he pulled that one off. At that point there really wasn't much I could do. I was the idiot that bought the car and didn't check on stuff or have anyone sign on anything. I sure do hate the previous owner though. What' was fun is that stuff just kept showing up! I have yet to actually spend a dollar on something to make the car go faster. It had a nice illegal cage, illegal flywheel, the engine was built by someone so who knows if that was legal either. Good thing I blew it up!

Anyways, it cost me a lot of money just making this car legal again and putting stuff back into it. It's got a junk yard motor, a bigger cage and more crap in it then when I bought it. How do I make my self feel good about this? By beating the previous owner's times by more then 6 seconds that's how!!!

Great, now I'm all mad again and it's to early to drink... or is it!

Moral delema is one question, moral conscience is another question. That's the reason I started a thread per the following in the Rules & Regulation forum. But, no one wants to play :024: with that thread. 101 peeks & finally today two posts. :023:

***ITA/Spec Miata Side hoop implementation
What may be altered/modified/moved/relocated behind the instrument pan***

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Great, now I'm all mad again and it's to early to drink... or is it!
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Never.


Marcus, who build his cars to avoid this.

Back in the early days of Showroom Stock, It was a claiming class. $500.00 over bluebook and you bought your competitors car out from under him. There was a Pinto that ran out of (I belive) NEDiv at the time who was considered a really fast car. Well, one of his victims decided to do something about this, and at the next race, claimed said Pinto. And he proceded to enter (and race) the little horse at the very next event. The former owner had procured a ride for this same event, and at impound, PROTESTED his former car. Yup, the car was found illeagle and disqualified. The former owner then went up to the new owner and told him there were 12 more points that could be protested, and if he brought the car back, he'd be protested, one at a time. So much for a friendly little club.

Russ

P.S. I could also tell you of the Rabbit claimed at the Runoffs in 1980, but I'll save it for later.

Russ--Thank you for the history. Maybe people who are curious about claiming will get it out of their minds...pronto.

Cheers.