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Don't know who was in the "chair", but two full laps off racing at WGI is a loooong time to decide to throw a FCY for a car wrecked on the line, unable to move, between 1 & 2. It was Ray Blethhen, III. Ray IV was more than moderately pissed off! He said 10 mins from impact to FCY!
It was about that long when I wrecked at the top of the Esses in 2008. I was up against the guardrail driver's left, in the small grass strip facing backwards, with at least two other cars up against the wall opposite me driver's right, and they ran the last two laps of the race under green (and neither a corner worker or safety person approached the car.)
WGI has some really really bad requirements/allowances for safety workers, and seems to be very inconsistent on how they handle on-course safety issues. You should pretty much plan on being on your own there (or getting a FCY for phantom issues).
GA
Ray was dead smack on the line, pointed race direction, obviously unable to move. We had two choices: go by on drivers left and skate on the curbs or drivers right and go through the crap he dragged back on course after hitting the wall. This was right between one and two. I was really surprised to come through a second time and find the situation unchanged with only a local yellow. Bad call on whoever was race control.
Ed
I was in the operating steward for today's TreadZone Pro IT race. I can't comment on the overall time line for the incident but I can comment from the Tower perspective. Ray impacted the guardrail and came to rest on the track between Station 1 and Station 2. Station 1 responded with a waving yellow (how vigorous is subject to interpretation) and their yellow light at the beginning of the braking zone. Station 2 called the incident in at 9:26. The WGI flaggers do not appear to have an 'emergency' tag in their protocol so the report came in with the wall contact and a car on course. As soon as it was ascertained that the car was damaged and could not leave on its own, the full course yellow was implemented at 9:27 (both times from the comm log). At the time that the FCY was declared, the lead car was around Station 5; it was picked up by the safety car at the end of the lap. The FCY was up for approximately 2-3 minutes before the safety car picked up the leader.Quote:
Don't know who was in the "chair", but two full laps off racing at WGI is a loooong time to decide to throw a FCY for a car wrecked on the line, unable to move, between 1 & 2. It was Ray Blethhen, III. Ray IV was more than moderately pissed off! He said 10 mins from impact to FCY!
I talked with Raymond and Stephan between the Pro IT and the enduro. My first impression based on my knowledge from the tower communications was that their time estimate was a bit distorted, possibly because of the stress of seeing their dad marooned in an extremely dangerous position. As the discussion continued and they both described the incident from their own points of view, the two lap delay seems much more plausible. Independent reports like yours mirror their comments.
Unfortunately, today's incident cannot be replayed. I will follow up with WGI F&C to inquire about their reporting of clear emergencies - both the speed and the emphasis. I'm not aware of their protocols or personnel assignments but I'll provide them with feedback from this event.
Terry
We rely on the tracks flaggers and not SCCA flaggers?!?
The waving yellow at two and the lights were both clearly visible, no issue there. Ray's location was such that I really expected to see a FCY by the time I was through the esses, not through two laps. Thank God no one else got loose there before he was picked up.
The second FCY was much faster. Car was into the wall in the downhill left hand sweeper towards the toe. FCY was out by the heel.
Some track flaggers ARE scca members.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Funk
Pretty much a known element of running at the Glen. Track flaggers DO NOT leave their station and go over the wall to assist a driver. If you're a sitting duck, it sucks huge to have to wait for the CFR truck(s) to make their way around. Another of the many quirks at the place.
As for bringing up race management.....I'll just throw out that I watched two laps of staying green at NHMS in the ITR/ITS/ITB group September '11 after Tom Kelly went head-on into the wall at the exit of T2 on the oval. Local waving yellow, only right at the incident, which happened on the opening lap. The first half of the field came around for lap 2 to find Tom's VW perpendicular to the track right on the line, about 8' from the wall, and the front 3rd of the car as shrapnel on every bit of track surface. Cars scattering and spinning everywhere to avoid him. It took until the end of lap 2 to throw a double yellow, the pace car was late getting out and ended up in the middle of the field, and the lap after that things mercifully went BFA.
Unfortunately, sometimes things like this happen.
^^^ That's bad!!! The operating steward can see (with his own eyes) the whole damn track! Guess some are better than others!
I'm a part-time participant in the Stewards-in-Training program, and I've gotten to watch - be - the Operating Steward on occasion. It's worth a visit to the tower to watch and listen, quite revealing.
One thing that really stuck in my brain is the (lack of?) quality of information coming from the corners. The Operating Steward's eyes and ears are on the corners; everything he/she knows is coming across the radio. Problem is, you're working with many different people of significantly differing personalities and significantly differing levels of handling of stress and significantly differing means of transmitting the information. An O/S can easily find him/herself calling a red flag all based on someone freaking out over a spinning car off track, or even allowing a local yellow when an observer calmly relates a pair of destroyed cars sitting on the racing circuit. Watkins Glen's peculiarities aside, it's really, really hard for the O/S to "know" for sure what's going on out there.
It's not a fair comparison, but contrast that to my observations a few years ago of the Race Control at Petite LeMans. A long-time friend, and ex-ALMS Race Director, Beaux Barfield invited a few of us to observe their race control, their team, and their procedures. The one thing that stuck out was that Beaux had a complete first-person view of the track in the form of cameras EVERYWHERE. He did not have to rely on second-hand reports of track condition; he could SEE it himself. He'd most certainly listen to what the observers were reporting, but he could temper that report with direct visibility, and he used those observations to make calls IMMEDIATELY rather than using precious time to gather more information to make the right call.
Same goes for the Runoffs at Road America. Laurie Sheppard invited me to watch Race Control in 2011. Same thing: full camera coverage along with what I'd consider "creme de la creme" of corner observers. More information, better decisions (not to mention a KICK ASS safety team at Road America that would hot-pull a damn Kenworth and trailer off the track as needed without disrupting the race action...)
Unfortunately, we rarely have access to those tools, so we have to do the best with what we have.
I do encourage racers to go up there some time and observe; it's some pretty revealing stuff.
GA
I've been up to control at NHMS, the OS can see the whole damn track by looking out the window! An incident at 2 should be easily visible. Guess it depends whose butt is in the "chair", some are just your regular butts, others are asses.
But why do we need to go FCY when there is an incident at only one corner? Especially at WGI, w/ 3 1/2 miles of racetrack, why can't we race on the other 2 1/2 miles? This is something I've found very frustrating about that track. The first time ever raced there (my second race ever) I was impressed that we got a white flag coming out of the boot and no one lifted. We went by the wrecker at full boat as he trundled along. Now it seems we even get safety yellows for commercial breaks. In the Enduro yesterday we spent 4-5 or so laps under FCY while there was something going on in the section of the short course we were not using. Also due to the length of the track, it might be 3 laps before you catch the field, which means 3 trips past the incident at close to race speed.
We did a 12 hour race at Summit one year w/o a single FCY, it can be done.
As I understand it, WGI safety personnel do not "hot pull".Quote:
Originally Posted by MMiskoe
Ed, I get the impression - and this is just a personal impression - that SCCA operating stewards tend to rely more on on-site observers' reports versus their own lying eyes. Don't know if it's cultural, or if it's formal procedure.
GA
Just to add a bit, I've been told by a competitor from the WGI area that the company that employs/organizes their corner workers are very conscious of their own safety and liability, and they don't allow them to come over the guardrail. My impression is that they also influence their use of the flags.
I've hit the wall at the left hander and just had a corner worker come over and ask if I was ok. I've also spun there and in the carousel, with my car on the line and perpendicular to traffic. I've looked to the corners for help getting back into traffic and seen a corner worker looking at me with crossed arms waiting for the show. Like Greg said, you have to assume you're on your own at that track.
That was kind of a ramble on post....
Some of these responses beg me to ask, Does anyone think that maybe drivers should slow down themselves when presented with a "dangerous situation" on track instead of just relying on flags, or lites ? Who knows it could just be you in the same situation the next lap.
The Funks are correct, I was less than happy with the situation that happened Sunday morning during the ProIT... My dad spun and had a hard impact into the wall on drivers right at the exit of turn 1. This bounced him back into the middle of the track at the track out point. The car was completely immobilized and it should have been clear to the corner worker in turn 1 as well as the safety crew that was a few hundred feet up the track. It should have been an immediate call from the corner station "Turn 1 waiving yellow, Car # 49 hard impact into wall drivers right and sitting in the middle of the track, need emergency crew now." Control stands up pace car and Ambulance then makes a decision within 30 seconds. Ambulance rolls onto track with a white flag and the full course yellow is displayed. Then find the leaders and roll the pace car, then wreakers covered by ma white flag.
This is what actually happened time wise based on my information and the information provided by Terry above.
Spun/impact was made at 9:23. I know this because I was video taping from the pit lane grandstands with my iphone (can't really see the car it is so far away). 1min 30 seconds later still not yellow and I tried calling my brother (time stamped as missed call in his phone) to go tell the black flag steward they need to go FCY. No answer so I sprint down the grandstands, down pit lane and towards turn 1. Just as I got to the fence by my dad the emergency crew pulls up behind the wall, it has now been 3 to 4 minutes. The emergency crew stands up track behind the wall, not in sight of my dad in the car. I yell to them that they need to go FCY the car is not moving and they get pissed at me and report me to the stewards for being upset. At 9:27 they finally go FCY and gather the field. At 9:31 the safety crew finally arrives at my dad to be sure he is ok... Going FCY or not I don't want t argue but I know that at this track they don't respond under green flag conditions. IT SHOULD NOT TAKE 8-9 Minutes for a safety crew that is a few hundred feet away to respond to a car. I am glad I went down and pissed off the safety crew as maybe that created enough of a disturbance to throw the FCY… not sure but I had to do what I could to avoid further accident/injury to all.
I was also involved with the Tom Kelley accident but as a driver, I was the car in front of him when he crashed and to be honest I watched it in my mirror and didn’t think he would walk away from such an impact. In this situation the flagger did not waive the flag with any urgency and it was two laps for us to go FCY in that case as well… After the race the drivers got yelled at for overdriving the flag condition. It was one of the worst experiences I have ever had of someone not stepping up and taking responsibility of putting someone’s life at unnecessary risk. Being in that Stewards program I think that the worker and the Stewards learned from that experience.
I have also bee involved with bad accidents as a Steward in the tower… It isn’t easy. We need to trust the front line workers (corner stations) to tell us exactly what they need. Believe it or not the Stewards try to keep the racing green so everyone gets his/her race but I think something needs to be done to handle emergency situations better.
What is the real issue??? We all want local yellows and hot pulls to keep races going until we are the ones involved. It seems to me like a broken down race car on the side of the track (non impact area) always gets a FCY but an actual accident where a driver could be seriously hurt doesn’t get FCY’s right away. I don’t have answers but I do know that places like NHMS we use our volunteer workers and us as drivers can make a difference by working a corner or two to help educate and build relationships with those workers. Places like WGI where these workers are paid maybe replacements need to be found or the track needs to be held responsible to do better training for all of our safety…
Partially joking but maybe the racing industry needs to have an SFI certification program for corner workers???
I had some other issues with the way the overall event was run this weekend (Enduro Scheduling). One of the Stewards asked me to write a letter/e-mail so that the concerns could be brought up and maybe changes could be made. Thinking this over shouldn’t we all be doing this if we leave the track unhappy? We love the sport and want to help it grow. Many of us are or know that most people are more like customers of SCCA than members. If “SCCA” is not making people happy then they need to know WHY so we can try to grow and retain our club membership.
Raymond
PS:
To all those that asked about my dad, thanks! He is doing fine and on vacation now with his wife. Not sure if he will fix the car, retire, or just run a few races in one of our cars. For now we will encourage him to try and fix the car so we can play together next year :)
Just an FYI with the facts and a picture of where this car was sitting for 2 GREEN FLAG LAPS. It takes 2:20ish for most cars to get around so that is a reaction time of almost 5 minutes to call a full course Yellow on a car that cannot move that bounced off the guardrail that is now sitting on line at the exit of a 4th gear corner. If anyone wants to argue about time we also have phone call logs from when we called eachother.
I agree that when we are racing as long as many of us have been we will always see a mistake happen, lets just learn from them. If it was the flagger at fault remove them until trained from that role, volenteer or not.
Stephen
As a former Flag Chief for NER, I’ve been race control operator many, many times at NHMS and LRP, and I’ve spent a lot of time in race control at Road America and a little bit at Watkins Glen. I have a few observations to make.
1. Terry says that the call regarding the incident was at 9:36 (and it might have been 9:36:01) and the call for FCY was at 9:37 (and it might have been 9:37:59, almost 2 minutes later) and yet it seems that it took two laps for the FCY to go up. These are not contradictory. The call regarding the incident was most likely not made as soon as it happened. In club racing we teach flaggers not to make calls as an incident unfolds (i.e. real-time calls) unless it is an emergency, but rather let the incident resolve and then make one call. This leaves the net clear in case another station has an emergency. If it wasn’t clear immediately, it would have been proper for the flaggers to wait an appropriate amount of time (perhaps 15-20 seconds) to see if the car was going to continue before making the call. Also, it is possible that when they went to make the call, there was traffic on the net and they had to wait for that to clear before they were able to make their call, further delaying it. So while the call was made at 9:36, it’s entirely possible that the incident actually occurred at 9:33 or 9:34.
2. The full nature of the incident was not described, but it doesn’t sound like it should have been called an emergency. Even if it had been, that wouldn’t have changed the timeline of the initial call if the net were tied up when the station attempted to call it in. It also would not have changed race control’s initial response to the situation. Specific criteria for calling an emergency are: hard impact with anything (another car, a wall, Armco, a berm….and “hard” is subject to the interpretation and experience of the flagger making the call), a rollover, a car on fire, a car disappearing out of sight off the track, and a worker down. Emergency calls are not to be made lightly, as they have very specific consequences regarding the net and standup of EVs.
3. While it is terrifying to have a car stopped online, esp facing counter-race (I was yellow-flagging at LRP when the Lotus spun and Ken Payson drove right up over it, one of the most terrifying experiences of my flagging career), I’m not clear what danger a delayed FCY caused in this situation. A local waving yellow was being shown. All the drivers saw and avoided the vehicle the first time around (before even a timely FCY could have been put up), and when the cars came around the second time and saw the same waving yellow, they could assume it was the same car in the same location. Now, if you’re talking about a true emergency situation with significant course blockage that would require a red flag, that’s a different ball of wax.
4. As with drivers, there is a large variation in the experience and expertise of flaggers. However, we teach flaggers early on how to make calls to race control. They know to tell race control where the car is (and what car it is, if known, whether the driver is OK, and whether there is course blockage. After the immediate situation has been addressed, they know to tell race control what car it is and how it got there. To imply that bad decisions are made by the operating steward because the flaggers are making bad calls is insulting to both the flaggers and the stewards. The operating steward can, and usually does, request whatever information he needs from the station to make a decision, if the station communicator didn’t give him enough information in the first call. Our axiom is: “Give the operating steward the information he needs to make the decision you want him to make”. As flaggers right at the incident, we usually know what needs to be done. It is our job to give the OS the information he needs to get it done. If we don’t give him enough information, he should, can, and does ask for it.
5. The fastest way to get flaggers to not come back is to “flag from the bridge”. Most tracks do not have cameras in race control (except for pro races, which is completely different flagging), and most tracks are not completely visible from the tower like NHMS is. When there are cameras and track visibility, it is not necessary or best for operating stewards to make calls based on what they see in the tower, without waiting to hear from the flaggers at the scene.
6. I strongly agree with Greg Amy that all drivers should spend some time up in race control. You will get a much better understanding of what goes on, what goes into making the decisions that are made and why it seems to take so long to make what seems like an obvious decision (as in this case). You’ll have a much better understanding of what the flaggers do as well as what the operating steward and all the other people in race control do. You don’t need special permission to come up, just identify yourself and tell them why you’re there. You will be welcomed.
7. I’ve never flagged at WGI and I probably never will. If a car on fire stops near me, I’m going over the wall to respond, track policy be damned. I don’t need to be escorted off the property and be told to never return. My job as a flagger is to make your race safe. I won’t flag at a track that won’t let me do my job.
So the 2nd FCY was at the "laces",~1/2 lap after the field took the green after Ray's turn 1-2 incident. An ITA Nissan went off drivers right impacting the tire wall. FCY was out by the time the last 1/3 of the field reached the "heel" (2 corners after the incident for those of you unfamiliar with the "boot" at WGI). He was not on the paved surface. He was not in what I would consider an impact zone for a normal screw up at that corner, brake failure...different story. Damage to the two cars ~ the same. Why the difference? One incident 2 laps, at least 4 mins, the other incident, maybe as much as 25 secs.
Great post Leigh.
my personal opinion is any car should probably never sit on track for 2 laps especially when lap times are almost 2 minutes and 20 seconds. watkins Glen as you mentioned has its own rules on flaggers and because of this full course yellows are the norm for any car that is immobilized. as a driver I would rather that call was made quickly so we can get back to racing as soon as possible. I also agree that we don't want to have a bunch of those so it is up to the interpretation of the flagger if they think the car will get moving again.
I was very happy that the operating Stewart specifically came to find me and my brother to see how our father was and to talk to my brother about the decision that he made as operating Stewart. no excuses just facts and never placed blame on anyone. as he said it was his decision that he made based on the facts that he had. he gave my brother the opportunity to vent and discuss the situation. in my opinion is a he handled the situation very well.
Stephen
My driver and her video tell me that it was what I would consider a course blockage...the drivers had 2 choices, drive off track and over the rumbles, drivers left or drive through the debris field drivers right....still able to circulate but with a driver in a disabled car...and no one has checked on his well being in over 2 laps, WTF!!!
If the flagger at 1 was exchanged with the flagger at the "laces" would both calls been just the opposite?
As NER's Club racing Chairman, I can tell you a full investigation was done, everyone involved was interviewed and several steps were taken to prevent an incedent like this from happening again. But, we are only as good as the folks that give their time for free! I might add that they are as committed and dedicated as anyone could ask! We all learn from our mistakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by preparedcivic
Stephen:
I’m so glad your dad is fine. I’m also glad you clarified what actually happened, as the additional information makes it apparent that it should indeed have been called an emergency.
I also agree with you that, as a general rule, no car should be left in the middle of the track for 2 laps. The FCY alone is not a response, rather it is part of the protocol that allows quick response by EVs to the incident. It is the safety of the driver of the car involved which requires immediate attention, rather than the safety of the other cars on the track.
WGI is not the only track with these crazy policies and under-trained but paid flaggers. I was at a vintage race at VIR (paid track flaggers, 1 per most stations, some stations with no flaggers) and a friend of mine rolled his open MG, coming to rest upside down, center track just before Oak Tree. FCY came out promptly and they proceeded to parade around for THREE laps (remember, this is a 3.5 mile track) while he remained upside down, leaking fuel, unable to get out of his car and nobody responding to him. Fortunately, no real damage to either car or driver, but I do not subscribe to the “better to be lucky than smart” adage. It was pretty horrifying.
I have no doubt that at any given race at any track, SCCA flaggers and officials will get you the best race management and response.
When I first saw Ray in the middle of the track, I wondered if we would get a red from it. That's how much of the track was unusable. In my opinion, there was insufficient racing room left around it. Even with everyone threading through under a local yellow, it was still way tight. A single wiggle in debris or oil, and Ray was just waiting to collect a car. As I said, we were straddling the curb to go left of him.
The other issue was the car looked really damaged, enough so that I was concerned for the safety of the driver.
To come around for a second lap still under a local was kind of a wtf moment. And yes, I have been in control and on corners before, both experiences that I highly recommend for everyone, not just drivers. I wish we could put all workers in the right front seat for a race. That would give them an entirely new perspective on things, same as a driver working a corner or control would.
Driving by the incident I immediately radioed to the team and my team mate behind that FYC was to be expected shortly. I was also surprised it took so long.
The car was clearly immobile and would require significant on track activity to (re)move. Not to speak of the most important thing - taking care of the driver. That being so obvious at first sight, there was no reason to delay FYC. The yellow in T1 combined with yellow blinking light was clearly visible, but not enough given the positioning of the car right in the middle of the track.
Very sorry for the wreck and glad he is ok.
Ray and Stephen, I think garage number 6 is cursed.
Glad your dad is ok and enjoying Florida.
I must say that racing at WGI for the last eleven years I have seen this type of situation occur one too many times. Back in 2004 an incident occurred in the bus stop during a practice/qualifying session I believe it was at the Fun One….The crippled/destroyed car was sitting in the middle of the track with wreckers and safety crews on the scene. They kept the rest of the track green during the recovery of this vehicle. The entire field came to a crawl when approaching the incident Eric Hall and I continued to run at full race speed once passing the said incident. After the session we were called to the tower and they stripped our times because we were bump drafting on the front stretch. So at that time I was pissed and said is to the chief steward is this because we were bump drafting then?? He stated “no” you were endangering your fellow competitors. At this point I was PO’s beyond believe:mad1: and I said how do you figure when approaching the bus stop I went through there in first gear which I assure you running a first gen RX7 with a 4.88 rear that is extremely slow once we cleared we came back up to speed. The CS maintained his position and I said then why didn’t you do a “black flag all”?? No response….I then said if you felt that the situation was that bad then how about a Red Flag? No response…I decided to protest his action which within minutes he came and said you were right we should have done a black flag however given the severity of the situation we weren’t thinking clear. Like Greg stated everyone deals with stressful events much differently however I feel with additional training incidents such as these can be mitigated.
On the another note in 2005 during the three hour endure I was spun and hit several times….I was immobilized in the exact same area of the track that Ray was…..They went FCY IMMEDIATLEY. Just my thoughts but I believe the bottom line here is further incident response training would help. I am sorry that this happened to Ray I always enjoy running with him and hope to see him back on track next year.
I agree. Who can we lean on to make this happen? Someone's going to get hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Weaver7
I want to thank everyone for asking about our father. He is fine and not injured at all.
I do think that the Operating Steward took the feedback and will make changes if they are needed. I think that we as drivers and participants need to make sure that we communicate when things could be better so that everyone invloved can reflect on what happened and what could be improved upon. I think several Stewards in the NE want to see things continue to get better so that we have a good safety record where people want to come and race. I think this thread also made some of the people involved understand that it wasn't just my brother over-reacting because a family member was involved in an incident on track and that a real concern was being addressed. I think that will probably speak volumes to changes in decisions for the future.
Stephen
One thing to remember is that the reason we see Terry at every pro IT event is that he is the operating steward for our series. Back in 2007 when the northeast series kicked off the first thing that was decided was that we needed our own steward in the tower for our events. Terry has done a great job over the years with this. We have consistency.
As mentioned we in the series take feedback, questions, comments and observations to ensure we have the best and safest series. Feel free to contact us by email, all that information is on ProITSeries.com.
Also, get me your W9 if you have not done that yet. We have a lot of funds being donated to the worker fund, thanks to all those that do that.
Plus, we are discussing 2013 season, start gathering your ideas for that. Drop us a note.