Printable View
Minutes here
Tech Bulletin here
Nothing much really for the IT guys, some thing for the ST crew - I'll let Greg elaborate on those. I was very happy to see the rule that now recognizes ARMS and EMRA comp licenses; as I just recently made the decision not to renew my SCCA license this year in favor of an EMRA license. It will be nice to know I could still run in an SCCA event, even if I never do.
I find this very interesting for the club though ...
STATEMENT ON SHOWROOM STOCK AND TOURING CLASSES FOR 2012
Based on current participation levels, it does not seem likely that T3 will remove itself from its current probationary status.
In that case, the CRB plans to disperse the T3 cars to T2 and to SSB. Appropriate adjustments in weight and/or intake restrictors will be made. There may be some T3 cars that will not be competitive in T2 regardless of such adjustments and which may not fit in SSB either; the owners of such cars may wish to prepare their cars to run in STU. The details about which cars will move from T3 to T2 and which will move to SSB, along with weight, restrictor and preparation allowances will be worked out in the next few months.
Of the remaining Touring and Showroom Stock, classes T1, SSB and SSC participation numbers are not encouraging. If these classes do not achieve the 2.5 average in 2011, the CRB will consider whether to allow a probation year or move to consolidate them in 2012.
:023: We need a thinning of the herd.
Almost makes you wonder if someone in Topeka grew a pair, doesn't it? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by seckerich
As do I.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshS
I started with SCCA in the mid-80s with Improved Touring, then moved to running Nationals in Showroom Stock in the late-80s. And this is back when SS was four classes (SSGT, A, B, and C) and the cars were truly "showroom stock" (stock pads, exhausts, seats, suspension, bolt-in cages; all you could really change was tires.) There was no American Sedan, no Spec Miata (oh no!), no Touring. Back then - IT aside - the progression of modifications was SS, Prod, GT. That's it.
Soon after the GT cars were getting too fast so American Sedan was created to allow better safety equipment and more mods. Touring was then created to allow more mods over Showroom Stock. SSA went away to move the cars to T2(?), leaving T1/2/3 and SSB/C. "Trunk kits" were allowed to SS cars to even the competition. Spec Miata was created and it siphoned off a lot of cars.
There was a move afoot a few years ago to eliminate SSB/C and replace them with T3/4. It was an interesting compromise of mostly-stock-looking cars with limited modifications. It was soundly trounced by SS participants and apparently by manufacturers. And now given that interested competitors are being fragmented between three Touring classes and the two remaining Showroom Stock classes - not to mention Spec Miata, American Sedan, Limited Prod, and now Super Touring Over, Under, and Light - SCCA's "vision" of production-based tin-top racing is all over the map.
It's time for some leadership from the Club. It's time for someone to take 28 steps back, look over the playing field from a 30,000-foot view, and takes some hard stances on where the limited resources and limited competitors should be shuffled.
From my perspective, sadly Showroom Stock is dead. First, the whole idea of being able to buy a new car, slap in a rollcage, and go racing competitively is quaint, but long in the tooth. I perceive the level of modification between SS and Touring as minimal (I admit I have not read the rules in detail lately), so I'd suggest that they be combined, maybe into something that's a compromise in mods. And as far as the manufacturer interest goes, is it really a large logical step for the manufacturer to promote a stock (?) car with a loud exhaust versus a lightly-modified one that looks the same but has a loud exhaust? Migrate all these cars together, set a reasonable mod level, and break the category into 4 classes based on speed potential. Use installed equipment to adjust competition to a reasonable level.
If someone is interested in going a bit "faster", maybe wants flexibility to do a bit more mods, then Super Touring seems the next level. Cars are classified on a straight-up weight-to-displacement curve with limited comp adjustments. Pick a spendy level from 1 to 3, go have fun.
If someone wants to get into even more mods (especially engine internals), significant body changes, wants active comp adjustments, and wants to run slick tires, Production beckons.
Finally, for the cat with the big bucks and a desire to build a ship-in-a-bottle with "sky's the limit" mechanical mods, Grand Touring is your baby. Pick your speed level from GT1 to GTL, and have at it.
In between all that are the "specialty" categories of American Sedan and Spec Miata. Self explanatory.
In the end, the existence of both Touring and Showroom Stock have proven to be their own worst enemies. Time to bring those together in marriage for the ongoing health of both.
GA
Create a National IT category using the same rules we run, but for cars not yet 5-year eligible. Grandfather the existing Touring and SS cars in with their current rules where they fit, with a irrevocable 3-year sunset clause.
Super Touring.
Consolidate GT and Production by performance envelope.
Soup.
K
So I've gotta ask. What is happening in IT land? Seems like communications have quickly decreased. A gag order or at least a "keep it down" order?Quote:
Nothing much really for the IT guys
We finally get a process in place and approval to use it yet it sure seems like little is happening with it. Maybe that's not the case, but it's not transparent to me. Related to all of this, numerous cars data was collected and run through the process a while back. Is the ITAC starting everything from scratch? Are rumors true that we might just go with a 25% factor across the board?
It seems like things have haulted instead of the oppposite. :shrug:
Heard they were adopting a zero-sum game rule and the weight coming off one car had to added to another. Rumor has it the prelude B car gets the weight they took off the CRX to keep parity between Japanese and European makes....Quote:
Originally Posted by gran racing
No, no gag order. Actually, I think we have accomplished more in actually dealing with using the process to handle car weighting issues in the last six months than we did in the previous two years.
Engine mount rule is still under discussion. Removal of miscellaneous items the same.
Quite frankly, I think we have solved most of the "big" issues, and I'm glad there is a period of calm -- and rules stability -- before the next storm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gran racing
Nothing about the Volvo 240 reprocess in IT. Any word on that from the ITAC folks?
That note about media rights is interesting... might that be taken to include video and photo that we take ourselves?
Not sure I'm on-board with that, then...
I'm no laywer, but I am pretty sure they still have to ask permission to use any picture that you might have taken. But once they have permission once, they have permission for all eternity and can use it in any way. I think that also includes pictures you take of someone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by 924Guy
We (the ITAC) made a recommendation on the 240. So it is, I believe, with the CRB.
The 142 is still with us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsportvolvo
We just need two classes.............. Miata and everything else.............
:happy204:Quote:
Originally Posted by JLawton
Earl, I was sorry to read this.
Can you just lay out a bit of your thinking on moving from SCCA to EMRA? Will help me as a data point on some of the discussions on the ITAC.
Thanks man.
Jeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by erlrich
You have PM (not to be confused with PMS).Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffYoung
The way it reads to me... no. You automatically give them permission to use any of those media. They want it, they get it or you can be DQ. It applies only to the entrant -- so if the media belongs to someone other than the entrant, SCCA does not have those rights.Quote:
Originally Posted by EH9racing
It also seems that you automatically give SCCA the same permission for any of these media you have ever taken at an SCCA event -- again, applies only to the entrant.
<snip> "It's time for some leadership from the Club. It's time for someone to take 28 steps back, look over the playing field from a 30,000-foot view, and takes some hard stances on where the limited resources and limited competitors should be shuffled.
From my perspective, sadly Showroom Stock is dead." <snip>
Greg, you've posted some important observations. On a number of occasions I've asked the CRB and the BOD to develop and present a plan for these classes....no answer yet!
We're coming up on 5 years since asked the PTB (on their own forums) to develop a plan http://www.sccabb.com/forum_posts.as...033&PN=1&TPN=1
No word yet....with what's happened in the meantime. it looks like your observation is correct, '....sadly Showroom Stock is dead'
For those of us without the time or inclination to modify and re-modify their cars, the SS opportunities are few...and the lack of participation makes them less attractive every day.
History has repeated itself, as street-driven Prod cars that morphed into all-out modified racers have been mirrored as Showroom cars morphed into all-out STU and STL modified racers (helped by seeding entries with double-dipping Miatas).
Will there be another opportunity for close-to-showroom cars? There will probably be another cycle, but I'll be watching from the sidelines by then.
LD71 :D
I find this stranger yet because outside if SM/ITA T1 is one of our healthier classes. It's common to see three or four T1 cars in a close battle for the lead with at least 2 or 3 more scattered in the field behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshS
That in itself isn't good, five or seven cars making one of the healthier classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Z3_GoCar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z3_GoCar
Here in Fla, the opposite is the case. There were 450 cars entered in the regional races at Daytona back in May without a single entrant in T-1. It's interesting to see the differing subscription levels amongst Regions in various parts of the country. It also demonstrates the difficulty in managing the club on a National level. Consolidating Touring and SS seems like an obvious choice at a national level, but it looks like it could have a negative impact on your region depending on how it's implemented.
That's one of the biggest challenges we face on the ITAC -- regional differences in prep levels and car counts and competitiveness. Makes it hard to judge "data," etc.
In some regions, you routinely have 10, 15 or 20 cars of all different makes in a single class (S, A or B). In others, you have a bunch of SMs doubel dipping in ITA and that's it.
In SW div, we usualyl have 5 or 6 ITA cars and one ITB car at each race. Throw in a few SM cars double-entering in ITA and that's it.
I haven't seen an ITS entry since August.
T1 has 1, maybe 2 cars enter each race. That's about it. T2 has 3 or 4, and T3 has a couple here and there.
Then we have 25+ SM at every race and usually 20+ SRF.
Prod, GTL, and STU are fairly well subscribed with 3-8 in each class. last race at TWS we had ~45 cars start the small-bore race and that's the biggest group I've seen in the last year.
Matt those numbers are fairly low all around compared to events I attend.
That was part of the point of my post. each region is different. Club Racing in TX just isn't as popular as it used to be while it's going crazy in other parts of the country. If we see 150 entries at an event, we're dancing in the streets. you guys call it a failure if you have less than 200.Quote:
Originally Posted by lateapex911
At Lime Rock, with a $400 entry fee, anything less than 175 is a money loser, LOL
Yup.. for a weekend, our entries are in the $450 range, depending on early entry or not. I think $425 for a double nat w/ early entry, $475 if you just show up.Quote:
Originally Posted by lateapex911
But it's huge when you have a 10-15 car run group. Last weekend we had a five car run group, 1 SRF, 2 FV's, 1 FF, and 1 SF. I think most were on thier way to the June sprints. This isn't unique to Cal-Club/SCCA, VARA's had very dimished numbers too, and BMW club cancelled some races last year. It's been this way the past three or four years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Earp
Oh, the IT group had a total of 24 cars including Naji's who lost third gear and was DNS( 4 T1, 1 ITS, 9 ITA, 1 ITC, 2 HP, 2 S944, 2 SRX-7, 1 SSC, and 1 AS )
Yikes... sounds like we're in the place to be... will typically have 6-10 ITB cars alone, on-track with another 6-8 ITS cars. Hell, we had as many DSRs last race weekend (5) as SCCA had at Mid-O for their Double National! :)