Longest Day at Nelson... ?2011?

On Thu Jan 13 9:48 , Neohio Enduro <[email protected]> sent:

>First and foremost, on behalf of Nelson Ledges, Neohio Region and the many volunteers that have help us put on these endurance race over the many years:
>*
>THANK YOU
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>I would also like to thank the many sponsor that have helped all of us by defraying the cost of this event.
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>By now you may have guessed that this was the sugar coating to the bad news.
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>Neohio and Nelson Ledges are feeling the pinch of the economy.* Our sponsors are in this economy cut back also and feel that with the low turn outs, this is not money well spent.* We can not afford to host this event on a "if come" entry.* For the last two years, we have held the cost down to the 2007 levels hoping this would entice more entries.* Last year we only had 15 entries and Western Ohio with their 8 hour enduro only had 10 and they charged $900 for an 8 hour race.
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>*
>With the influx of the "Other" non-SCCA funny car event, The Lemons and The Used Care enduro, we just can not compete due to our rules structure.* While they seem to be fun event, I for one would prefer "REAL" gentlemen SCCA racing.
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>*
>To that end, we have decided to raise the entry fee to $1000 with a minimum entry of 30 cars.* This means we need $30,000 to put on this race.* Now, after hearing all that, if you are interest or have any ides how we can come up with that figure, we are open to you suggestion.* If we get more then 30 cars, we can make refunds thou that is not cast in stone yet.
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>*
>At this time, if you are really interested in seeing the 12 hour*"Longest Day of Nelsons" continue, please respond to this e-mail.* A formal "Intent To Enter" form will be sent later.* We need to know now if we should proceed with this in 2011.
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>Tentatively, half of the money would be due up front with the completed Intent form and the balance due no later then 30 days before the event.* We cannot afford to be guessing on this.
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>If we don't have the interest, we will drop the date or use it for a straight regional.
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>Your input is important as this is YOUR race.* The cut off for this is February 1st.*but you can keep sending you input. *I would just like having something by our February Trustee's meeting.* Cut off to drop the date is March 1st.* Please reply as soon as you can.* No response from you is a NO for this years Enduro.* Remember, at this time we are just looking for your input and not your commitment.* We know many of you are supported by your drivers, please pass this on and get their feelings..* After all these years trying to make a come back, I would hate to stop now.
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>*
>Nelson Ledges is where it all started.
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>Duane Harrington, RE
>Neohio Region, SCCA

Doyle racing will be there. It would be great it we could get some of the competitors from the VIR 13 in the fall to compete in this event, or the competitors who expressed interest in the WOR Games 8hr for this year. I must say to others who have not competed in this event, it is great. If you have ever thought about doing it, now is the time. The 12 hours is can be done with just a couple of drivers and a couple of crew members. It is alot of track time and competition for the money.

I don't mind paying that fee for a 24 but not a 12. Sorry.
Chuck

The economies of this game start the spiral of doom when things get tight.

We've done a lot of 12, 13, and 24 hour races since 2004 but are having a hard time finding people able to pay the freight for seats. The entry fee is just one cost associated with running an event but increases make it harder for us to fill the seat, making it harder for us to commit.

SO, I've said it multiple times before in response to these questions (and I'll send a note directly to our friends at NL in addition to posting here), we'd LOVE to do it but are completely at the mercy of drivers with funding.

K

Quote:

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Originally Posted by callard

I don't mind paying that fee for a 24 but not a 12. Sorry.
Chuck

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DC Region just upped it's entry to $260 for about 1.25 hours of track time.
That's $208/hour of track time.

$1000 for 12+ hours of track time.
That's about $84/hour of track time... if you get to use it.

Seems to be that this is a hell of a deal except it's Nelson and if I wanted to run a rally cross, I'd actually run a rally cross.:)

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Originally Posted by jjjanos

... except it's Nelson and if I wanted to run a rally cross, I'd actually run a rally cross.:)

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While I can't lie and say NL is as smooth or challenging as Mid-Ohio, I feel it regularly gets a bad rap for the track/paddock conditions. I personally really like racing at Nelson - sure the track is bumpy in spots but it's really not that bad - and it's a very fast track. I may be a bit biased as it's where I completed my driving school requirements, but I've raced there, in the car I bought from you, numerous time and always had a blast. And I believe in supporting the smaller mom/pop type tracks - NL has always treated us right (in the whopping two years I've been racing) and never with the air of superiority that we experience at MO from time to time.

http://www.chumpcar.com/events.php Runs a 25:25:25 race there in 2011!!
"Worlds longest Race".
While I race many santions," Chumpcar" works the best for the tracktime VS cost. It also is 1000$ entry, and runs on DOT 190 tires. We get 7hrs per LF tire @ Roebling road .
I wont go out of my way to go to Nelson, mud, crappy paddock, compared to every where else that we run.
The EC class allows IT level cars, we run one of the rental ITB Golfs for the EC class, along with the full on Chumpcar.
The racing has been very good so far. other than black flags for passing on the yellow. CWS uses a slightly different system than SCCA. If you can see the flag station, you are under the yellow area.
Hard times force us to look around for value. Our drivers are varied backgrounds. Former Daytona 24hr racer, Former Imsa racer, former nat record holder, hillclimb,
Now we all just race for fun. The best reason.
IMHO. MM

If need Doyle Racing /EAC has aquired a 2ed car and can enter it as well.
as a quick question
What is the break even point for the the race...

Thanks
Morey

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Originally Posted by boywonder

While I can't lie and say NL is as smooth or challenging as Mid-Ohio, I feel it regularly gets a bad rap for the track/paddock conditions. I personally really like racing at Nelson - sure the track is bumpy in spots but it's really not that bad - and it's a very fast track. I may be a bit biased as it's where I completed my driving school requirements, but I've raced there, in the car I bought from you, numerous time and always had a blast. And I believe in supporting the smaller mom/pop type tracks - NL has always treated us right (in the whopping two years I've been racing) and never with the air of superiority that we experience at MO from time to time.

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It's not so much the condition of the track that keeps me from racing there. It is what I have heard and seen regarding the roughness of "runoff" areas and the tire piles. The tire walls have been improved from their worst days, but what I have heard is that an off course excursion, even one that does not hit a wall, stands a good chance of seriously damaging or writing-off a car.

I'm prepared to write off the car every time I go out on track. I'm less inclined to do so if every mistake stands a good chance of doing it.

not sure if thatrs really the case, iv seen a lot of car go off and be fine, the ones ive seen become 'write-offs' would write the car off at any track

Actually, NL has big runoff areas and while not necessarily forgiving, you will not damage your car on an "off" there more than, let's say, Watkins.

What we say to NL critics--"Exactly when was the last time you raced there?"

When we did the 24 in 2007, we had one driver perch it on the wall near the end of the carousel(?) and I went off at the kink - THAT was a ride. There are a few places where the price will be high but it's no worse, all in all, than CMP or Summit, less bad than Rd Atl or the Glen, but not as wide open as VIR - to put it into context.

K

Morey,if you were asking me about the break even point, cash wise you willnever break even!!
The entry is $900 for 4 drivers, gas is 100gal, tow is 1000miles. It is a good time, split amoung the 4 guys it is not real bad, cost wise. The winner gets 1000 to 1500, pays to third place.
HTH, MM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by boywonder

While I can't lie and say NL is as smooth or challenging as Mid-Ohio, I feel it regularly gets a bad rap for the track/paddock conditions. I personally really like racing at Nelson - sure the track is bumpy in spots but it's really not that bad - and it's a very fast track. I may be a bit biased as it's where I completed my driving school requirements, but I've raced there, in the car I bought from you, numerous time and always had a blast. And I believe in supporting the smaller mom/pop type tracks - NL has always treated us right (in the whopping two years I've been racing) and never with the air of superiority that we experience at MO from time to time.

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I wouldn't want to imply you are the de-facto expert, but you might have the most experience hitting things at Nelson and MO...I'm pretty sure you did a lot more damage to your car at Mid-Ohio hitting the tire barrier than you did at Nelson.

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Originally Posted by jumbojimbo

I wouldn't want to imply you are the de-facto expert, but you might have the most experience hitting things at Nelson and MO...I'm pretty sure you did a lot more damage to your car at Mid-Ohio hitting the tire barrier than you did at Nelson.

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For the record...that was all my first season. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by jjjanos

It's not so much the condition of the track that keeps me from racing there. It is what I have heard and seen regarding the roughness of "runoff" areas and the tire piles. The tire walls have been improved from their worst days, but what I have heard is that an off course excursion, even one that does not hit a wall, stands a good chance of seriously damaging or writing-off a car.

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But yeah, I went off more times that I can count at NL and worst that ever happened was parking it on the tires outside of the carousel and splitting a brake line. No damage last year either despite breaking two rotors at NL, once in T4 and once in T12 - I feel "safe" there. Mid-Ohio...it took one off before the CRX had more wrinkles than a bulldog. YMMV :shrug:

Received this in the email today (some typos corrected) - On 7/7/11 8:43 PM, "Neohio Enduro" <[email protected]> wrote:


Well I've been waiting for entries but they are really slow coming in.* So slow that our Board meeting last Tuesday, we almost canceled it.* I have said it for many years now that this is YOUR race and you NEED to support it.* The 16 entries last year barely broke even let alone made for a less the exciting race.
*
This just may be the last year for REAL endurance racing as it looks like there is a lot of interest it those "Junk' car races.* Not that I have anything against them but I for one like real racing
*
Now f you are really planning on racing this event, I would say it is about time you got off your bottom side and get an entry and deposit in to me NOW.
*
Let's sweeten the pie a little.* Carbotech Brake has come up with contingency.
*
12 Hour of Nelson Ledges - Carbotech Contingency Announcement
*
Carbotech Brakes*has announced*contingency prizes for the top three in each class at the 12 Hours of Nelson Ledges, August 20th.
*
Cars must*be running Carbotech Brakes*with proof of purchase along with stickers on the car.* Carbotech Brakes must be on all four corners.
*
Prizes will be awarded as follows:
*
1st - $100*( two or more*cars in class)
2nd - $75*( three or more cars in class)
3rd - $50 (**four or more cars in class)
*
Other possible contingency/prize awards to be*possibly announced at a later date--
*
Now for those that need to know why we almost canceled, here is what I have on record as of this date.* I have a lot of promises but nothing in writing so if you're coming, get something to me within the week.
*
HART Racing, Johnn Schmitt ITE Accord
EAC-Doyle Racng, Andy Doyle* STU Dodge SRT-4
Iron Dragon Racing, Bill Miskoe, SM* Miata
5:01 Motorsports, Andy Cotyk, ITS Datsun 240Z
*
Now you can see why we are worried.* This is not fun.
*
Dorothy Harrington
Chief Registrar
12 Hours of Nelsons

Chumpcar has one class, handicapped by laps/vs cost. The SCCA has many classes racing . Some may have only 1 or 2 cars ... That is the result of all of the STU. ITE, etc.
The Chumpcar NL is 25:25:25, longest race in the world!!. cash prizes!!. The best trophies.

I am pretty sure that it is sold out.( @ 50 or60cars)
Many Ex SCCA/pro, drivers are doing the new Crap Can races. Why?? It is fun. Where else can a bug , draft a cop car?
The tires can go 10 hrs on the LF for our car!
Maybe it is time for SCCA to do the sprint races right, and let the crapcans run the long real races.

Chumpcar has 90 entries, taking the first 75 paid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LarryWinkelman

This just may be the last year for REAL endurance racing as it looks like there is a lot of interest it those "Junk' car races.* Not that I have anything against them but I for one like real racing*
Now f you are really planning on racing this event, I would say it is about time you got off your bottom side and get an entry and deposit in to me NOW.*

- Dorothy Harrington, Chief Registrar, 12 Hours of Nelsons

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(underlined and bold emphasis - mine.)

Oh, who made YOU the judge of what real racing is? If a national publication (Grassroots Motorsports) can give such events recognition status with regular coverage, who are YOU to disagree? Your comments insult those who do both lowbuck enduros AND SCCA events...

It's no wonder that with your attitude, and, by extension, your region's, that you had to cancel your race. Ma'am, it's not just the economics...

I don’t know Chris, lemons or chumps may be fun but is certainly not serious racing, not as long as it allows totally subjective penalties at the whim of officials. SCCA racing maybe frustrating for its bureaucracy but at least it is fair. There was a great column in Car and Driver last spring that talked about the segmentation of amateur road racing in this country. They described lemons/chump car as suited for people who believe life should be more like reality TV.

LeMons is srs bzns....

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Originally Posted by dickita15

I don’t know Chris, lemons or chumps may be fun but is certainly not serious racing, not as long as it allows totally subjective penalties at the whim of officials. SCCA racing maybe frustrating for its bureaucracy but at least it is fair. There was a great column in Car and Driver last spring that talked about the segmentation of amateur road racing in this country. They described lemons/chump car as suited for people who believe life should be more like reality TV.

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From what I understand, the real clowns are in LeMons. Many of the other copycats have less of the bs... Bottom line is that these venues are taking off, and not just because of economics. Many of us are sick of the stodgy idiots that are running the show in various areas of SCCA. My guess is that you'll see so-called "crapcan" racing evolve into something that is less subjective.

What constitutes "real" racing is merely subjective. National types may say that regionals aren't "real" racing because the stakes aren't as high. The pro sportscar ranks may look down at clubbers as not "real" racers because the cars/programs are not at the tip of the sport and manufacturer involvement is scant. And NASCAR/Indycar may say that all else isn't "real" racing because they have the highest and most dangerous speeds. And F1 may put themselves highest of all as being the "real" racing because they have the best of everything, plus team budgets that would dwarf those of many third world countries. And you may say F1 is not "real" racing because it's too technology-intensive and the driver is less of the equation, etc.

Bottom line: don't exalt your racing at someone's expense. Chances are you look just as trivial to somebody else...

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Originally Posted by RedMisted

Bottom line: don't exalt your racing at someone's expense. Chances are you look just as trivial to somebody else...

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You make a point, none of us should belittle others efforts but being human we do. It is really much like me saying the Yankees suck if I am a Red socks fan.
I agree that these events have become more popular although when you add up the actual number of event it is not huge yet.
In SCCA at the highest levels we are wrestling with the segmentation of club racing. There is no doubt that for a serious racer desiring to compete for a national championship SCCA is still far and ahead the leader. Our rules structure and technical inspection makes it pretty likely if you get beat it will be with a legal car in a fair manner. No group is perfect but SCCA does the top level pretty well.
The problem I see is that all those rules that make it fair at the top makes it a pain in the ass if you just want to have hassle free racing. We need to find a way to serve the serious competitor without alienating the race for fun crowd. This is probably the biggest challenge for Stewards and Tech. If you ask these officials to “lighten up” they say sure, give us a list of rules you do not want enforced.
Not easy but we are all working on it.

Dick, take a better look @ Chumpcar. It is real racing with good rules that balance the cars pretty well. It is not the Citrus BS Circus.
There are many ex IT cars making up the fields. We will have over 300 drivers @ Sebring this Sept. Nelson has 75 cars with 4 or more drivers each.
The cars are well prepared as a rule, the racing is cleaner than any SCCA club race. Blocking is black flagged, instead of overlooked.
I have very good drivers that could run any SCCA pro race near the front. (My Son beat the Taylor kids , not many years ago, in the karts).
There are pro guys looking for rides . The car owners make them pay , just like the rest.
One class and hard tires keeps it a real race.
To win, The stops have to be perfect, the cars have to stay on track, no black flags. No lost repair time. It is the real deal. Take a better look if you want real racing.

SCCA could do well to add the 500$ class to the regional level. The key to success is the cost per lap and the rule set that allow mods up to 500$. IE, my VW get about 300 to work with. Miata get 0, the E30 gets 0,.The cars are even,as a result. The fuel tank and fuel burn even out the power levels.

How about this;
At the end of sat , at your SCCA regional, start a race @ 4:00 till :900 or 10:00. (Night racing is the nuts.)
Keep the tire rule @ 180 or higher, all the cars run as one class. ITA or slower.
I know, it needs a full track package with flaggers, EVs ,etc. Never happen.
I suggest putting it out there and see what happens. SCCA might have to accept Chump driver tickets to get it done. I would be happy to oversee the rules. MM

As fun as that sounds, I don't think it would work in the current SCCA Club Race atmosphere. The problem isn't so much car rules as it is the atmosphere that the SCCA projects and the steps that the SCCA requires (as well as NASA to a lesser degree) to participate. In short, Lemons, Chumpcar and the like are more welcoming and make it easy to participate. The car rules are a gimmick, one that worked to get their series off the ground but the real genius is that those organizations have made it easy get started and their conduct rule sets insure safe yet fun racing.

SCCA Club Racing still thinks it's the "pinnacle" of amateur road racing and I guess in some respect it still is but it's created an organizational arrogance that is serving to be it's undoing. It's not a big secret that they've been seeing a reduction in participation for several years now yet they've done little to nothing meaningful to correct course. Actually in some cases they are making changes that will serve to chase more people away. Case in point: The HNR rule. It's scope is bad requiring the SFI 38.1 spec and it's timing is awful! We're in the middle of a deep recession so they decide it's a good time to heap another cost on it's racers! It's going to serve to only further reduce participation as more racers decide to either go elsewhere or hang it up.

It's a shame that Nelson's "Longest Day" is struggling. I competed in it in both 2008 & 2009, it's a fun race but it takes a lot of money to run a 12 or 24 hour race and it's struggles are a perfect illustration that racers money is tight. NEO does a good job of running that event yet Dorothy's take unfortunately illustrates the SCCA Club Racing arrogance.

The car prep rules would be are no big deal, SCCA is perfectly capable of running the same cars. I believe that in mid div they have already run a lemons/chump class at regionals (can we call them Lumps). My understanding is the safety gear level they are running would be fine. What SCCA need to work on is the perception if not the reality of getting a license. We are always going to require physicals and I do not see us giving up having to have a license unless the Lump drivers are never on the track with traditional racers. Now we are trying hard to stream line this stuff. It looks like we can go to 2 year physicals in some age groups that are now 1 year and we accept Nasa Med forms and are working on FAA but these are small steps. We are reviewing what the requirements should be for license renewal and talking about the making the waivers system more automatic.
I think we serve the hard core racer well but we fall down on the casual racer, the guy with an IT car in his garage but can only race 1 to 3 weekends a year.

The med factor is a big hassle now days. Yo have to have a physical in the last 30 days or so??
The FAA is flying guys on driver license med ticket now(Light Sport). Maybe the annual physicals are a waste of time and money? They are. How is racing a car any more dangerous to others, than driving on the street?
Is it time to reduce the medical requirements for a SCCA license?


I have a driver that is 79yrs old, with a SCCA license, that had a soft stroke10 yrs ago . We have to lift him out of the car. Decent driver, hell of a nice guy. Gets a SCCA pass every year.
The Chumps just need a street license and to be able to walk( or get to) to registration and back.
The SCCA race license office, can be a hassle. How many races? send it in , oh you need one more for a national, send it back.. BS. Why hassle your customers? How much do we pay these people to hassle us?
If there was just one level , we could do away with half of the SCCA office. get rid of it..
Some have said that the racing has seen a reduction of participation due to the economy. The facts are that the guys with money have gone elsewhere ,Chump racing being one venue. There is plenty of money spent on these race cars and at the races. I have team owners from all over the east coast. All well off ,one SCCA member. Most of my races have at least one fly in driver. Money is being burned through these cars. Dont kid your self into thinking that it will go away. It is bigger and bigger every race. It is treated like a business, not a courtroom. The rules are a little subjective, but the results have been close. If you win, you get penalty laps the next races. If you cheat, you dont get the money.
Money!! thats right, it is $1500 to win. Wicked trophies on top.
When you get your ass handed to you, a good business plan is to copy success. SCCA needs to reduce the hassle of it's office, at the race regstration, at tech, all along the road to the track. Reduce the classes. My ITB car can run HP, GTL, STU, WTF?
IMHO, MM

Dude, slow down, you are starting to not make sense. Playing devil's advocate here:

Annual physicals are a waste of time? Uh, physicals aren't annual until you get fairly old. Not a big burden and you should be getting one anyway.

So your 79 driver is fine to run in SCCA but he can't run in chumpcar because he can't walk to registration? and this is a bad thing for SCCA why?

Last time I looked, chumpcar is for $500 cars. where does an ITA miata fit in there? or an ITR mustang, or the magic V8 mustang that the other guy wants in IT? Granted a lot IT cars, mine included, could fit. but not most.

Ok, so lots of money is being spent. Wait, I thought the argument was that this is cheap racing? I don't see how "Money is being burned through these cars" matches with this is cheap racing.

or are you saying that big money needs to be spend if you want to win? Well, welcome to racing, money wins. but that's a false arguement, you can buy a decent ITC car for $3,500, come to great lakes, run up front aginst 5 good cars with clean safe drivers, have an awesome time and not spend a lot of money. how do I know? I do it 6 times a year.

You have people spending big money and flying in so they can win $1,500 and split it 4 ways? Not to mention the "team owners". That makes no sense. I'd love to win money but it makes no sense that people are spending big money to win that kind of money. and there is only 1 class. that's great if you win, but what about the other 50 cars that don't win? This only makes sense if you are the only prepped car and everyone else is happy paying you $1,500 to beat them. That will not last forever.

If you want to say that chumpcar is more fun, more relaxed, cheaper, easier and even better than SCCA, fine, you may be right and you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But you aren't even making sense anymore, you aren't making a logical arguements, you are just shouting "scca sux and chumpcar rules". You might be right, but jeez, slow it down a bit.

Mike let not make it sound worse than it is. Physical must be within 90 days. we have tried to loosen that one up but the head doc won’t budge. The only real problem is if you have two things that need medical at different times like SCCA and DOT or FAA.
If you have no serious conditions you need a new physical every five year until 35, every two until 59 and every year after that. FAA says every year after 70. We are working on that.
A few years ago I complained to my director about the strict medical requirements when a friend of mine and longtime driver had to sit out a season while he got a problem under control. She told me the biggest killer of SCCA drivers in competition was heart attacks. Kind of hard to argue with.
Small changes can be made. At the Las Vegas convention in 2010 I ended up sitting next to the top doctor at a lunch. I whined to him that my doctor refused to do the peripheral vision test saying he did not have the equipment making me go to an eye doctor. I found this requirement particularly silly in that I wear a full face helmet. He said my doctor was wrong and all they really had to do was hold up a finger to test us.
When I receive my Medical form in December there was a new paragraph added explaining how to do the simple test. Nice to see he was listening.
We can make the club better but it will never be the wild wild west.

Large Jim, I am sorta ADD. Makes a lot of issues.
No we dont race for the money. Did that with dirt mods.
The point here is that lots of the guys with money have left SCCA for racing with more fun, more cars, more track time, and less hassle.
Mustangs , cop cars, VWs, Hondas, old Z cars, BMW,E30, 540, etc. All run Chumpcar. The cars appear to be 500-1000$ cars. Of course it is not cheap, but the VW cost about 200 per hr.
5 cars in class? .
RE med. SCCA kills drivers by heart attack? These guys all had a recent med check anyway, how is the annual check for over 50 doing any good? No check, is probably as good statistically. MM

I read some of your posts. I started USEDCAR Racing Series in late 2009 after racing in a Lemons race at Nelson Ledges Road Course. We had a very good true 24 hour race last year. This year we are running one race in two 10 hour segments on Sept. 3rd and 4th, 2011. We run 2 class the first is under $500 cars like chump and lemons, the second is over $500 cars (ITA, B,C, & S). We don't have all the crazy penalties, the race is the most importent thing and we don't bolt anything to peoples race cars. The cars belong on the track not in a penalty area. If this interests you look us up on the website or you can contact me at (330) 685-5826.

Thanks Chad
USEDCAR Racing