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Anyone know the driving differences between a Torsen (the manufacturer, not the style) dif and a Quaife in a FWD car?
I had a Torsen in it, destroyed it (it was 14 years old!!!) and can no longer get them for the Saturn. The Quaife is on a slow boat from England................
Thanks!!
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Same general design.
You want a clutch-type diff for a FWD race car.
Both are smooth ...and heavy.
Same design--gears.
OS Giken??Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Amy
http://www.osgiken.co.jp/pdf/OSPower.pdf
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/whats-diff/
I think you'd want a clutch type no matter which end drives.
a lot of the choice is preference. torsen / quaiffe gear-types are much smoother in transitions of torque while clutch types have a more digital effect which annoys some drivers. a high torque biasing ratio helical can make a car handle strangely, oversteering when hevily crossed up - not great. clutches can be a little harder to live with in very tight slow corners. some real positives for quaifes.
clutch types work when a wheel leaves the track, gear types go full open in that case. clutch types tend to be substatialy lighter too. prices on old school style clutched diffs are much lower, and guys like Steve Eckerich can often turn your factory diff into a clutch LSD, so you don't need someone to "make" a specific diff for your car. win win win clutch.
there are newer hybrid style out there, such as the OSGiken or Wavetrac that use a geared system to distribute torque smothly but also press clutches so the diff truely locks up. these are likely to be the best once better developed if they aren't already. they suffer from weight but deliver the best of both worlds. the inertia of a diff is actually pretty low given their high mass as they are relatively small, so the weight is more of a located mass than a driveline loss issue.
for the money - I haven't seen anythign as good as a Steve E. conversion. you can spend a lot more for a lot less.
More info on that...? Web Site/Contact info, especially?
Mr. Eckerich is an ITS Mazda driver in the SEDiv. He posts here frequently Greg -- he's over in the SEDiv forum now on the Memorial Monster thread.
Great guy. Send him a PM and he will help you.
I knew I recognized the name...
The Nissan community (SR20 crowd) lost the only two diffs we could get: the Quaife (from, well, Quaife) and a clutch-type that NisMo used to offer (what I raced on). A solution like this would be a godsend for the community.
Then there's Jeffy with poor old Saturn...I think he'd be a lot happier (and more financially-stable) if he was using a clutch type instead of a gear type imported from England...
Steve! I'm looking for you! ;)
BTW, I'm running a new OS Giken in the Integra. Haven't had a chance to fully evaluate it (or set the car up for it) so I can't offer any feedback...yet...
Ducks and runs for cover.:p
Send me a pm with your contact info Greg and we will see what we can do for you. I was watching the thread but try not to be a part whore and solicit work on the forum where I play.
imoQuote:
Originally Posted by greg amy
Not gears in the OSG unit (other then side/spider gears). Just more highly engineered CLSD with a clutch timing (torque loading) system.Quote:
there are newer hybrid style out there, such as the OSGiken or Wavetrac that use a geared system
Chris, I really liked the welded diff I had in the Suzuki, and driving Pablo at Road Atlanta with the welded was quite enlightening. I think that a welded is probably faster than an off-the-shelf clutch type (I think Pablo was...)Quote:
Originally Posted by shwah
However, I found some significant disadvantages with a welded: terrible turn-in characteristics, forcing you to "horse" the car in, increasing slip angle and tire drag; annoying scrub mid-corner, binding up the engine and slowing things down a tad; but "hang on!" corner out (I actually had throttle-on OVERSTEER with the Swift!) All of these you can drive around and improve times, though.
I'm hoping with the design of the OS Giken to have the best of all worlds: turn-in characteristics of an open, mid-corner/partial-throttle of a gear type, and track out of a welded. All of these phases are tunable; time will tell... - GA
I definitely see diff type as a driver preference/style thing.
Albin tested a 'hybrid' quaiffe type with friction disks at RA a few weeks ago, hoping to reduce the speed lost through the kink. It still lost the same speed, but gave up some other areas - for Chris' notably aggressive driving style.
Locked in a RWD drive (at least in the Z) seemed to cause too much understeer on turn in, and even more on exit, although the rears hooked nice. I didn't like it.
That's apples to hand grenades Jeff.
Locker on fwd turns in great. Just do it at WOT.
Definitely a different animal, but the key is that different chassis tuning is required. My teammate, with an otherwise very similar car, has a welded diff vs. my factory limited-slip. When he welded it up, coming from an open diff, he found it really tightened the car up, particularly on corner entry - but that was readily addressed with chassis adjustments. More rear bar, less front, and final tweaking on the shocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffYoung
Fixed that for you. And I was pissed because he did all of that work and ended up leaving as late as he did to arrive shortly before registration opened on Friday morning. I hate it when he does that.....Quote:
Originally Posted by shwah
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffYoung
You didn't like it but ran a 2:17.1 with it and me a bit higher 2:17.
I just tried to measure the breakaway torque of this 3.7 clutch pack and ran out of leverage at 175 ft lbs. Couldn't get anymore on it one handed and reading the display You'll need to help me measure it sometime, but it is effectively locked/welded like my 3.56 as far as I can tell.
Steve E - what should these clutch paks be breaking away at, like 55 ft lbs?
Was that the welded? I thought I drove the welded only once at CMP in 2008 (not 09), test day, the one where we figured out the suspension bushings were turning in the car?
I thought the 2:17.1 at VIR was the clutch pack and 3.7?
With factory ramping 45-50 is about right if the packs are in good shape. Yours is shimmed up so there is not really any travel now and the preload is bottomed out. Need to reset the tolerances. You always run the lightest preload you can and still hook up. My CMP setup has 30 pounds breakaway when cold.
Steve, I assume higher torque cars need more breakaway torque?
It was.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffYoung
What I am telling you is I can't get the 3.7 clutch pack diff, the one I just pulled out of the car and we've been running for 1.5 years, to break away even with applying 175 ft lbs of torque to it here on the bench with the R180 breakaway tool. That is why is behaves like a welded diff - it IS EFFECTIVELY welded from what I can tell. And this is cold.
Please clarify?Quote:
Originally Posted by seckerich
The preload on a clutch diff just gives it enough to not spin when one tire is unloaded. With both touching the ground it uses the ramps inside to add pressure as you accelerate and also controls lock on decel to steady the car under the brakes. Too much and it pushes like a pig (rear wheel drive) and too little it will wiggle and cause one tire to back spin and pitch the car. There is a lot more to them than just the breakaway torque.