Looking at H&N restraint systems and thought I'd poll those currently being used.
What are you using?
With what options?
and
Why?
Thanks in advance
(I know there was a poll but there wasn't a "why")
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Looking at H&N restraint systems and thought I'd poll those currently being used.
What are you using?
With what options?
and
Why?
Thanks in advance
(I know there was a poll but there wasn't a "why")
I will answer if the thread takes off, but I guarantee you there must be hundreds of posts made on this already if you do a search. It's a topic that gets heated debate regularly.
I searched and found alot of debates about SFI and RSI and black helicopters and even what kind of HNR was used, but not what led to the decision to buy a certain type. :)
I was kinda hoping for; "I bought an isaac cause...".
or
"I sold my isaac and bought a hans cause..".
or
"My hutchins strangled my cat..."
Or something like that.
Ok, I looked further and found this link...(and quite a few others)
https://improvedtouring.com...Neck+Restraint
Anybody feel like posting with updates now that its 2 years later?
Oh, alllrigggght, I'll play.
I got an Isaac because Gregg bought me a big fat steak dinner and then later when we went to a "club", he procured a couple lap dances for me...
Not what you wanted, eh?
OK, straight up. I got an Isaac because:
-It has the best protection from all angles.
-I have faith in my ability to learn proper removal techniques (pull the pins)
-It meant that to achieve the same level of protection I didn't have to purchase a "winged seat", and then live with the reduced area to egress should the door become inoperable. To me, the net/net on the Hans/winged sea combo is a loss of safety at increased $ cost. bad ratio.
And finally, I got to keep it because the SCCA allows me to make a call based on critical thinking, and I thank them for that.
Now, idealistically, I did NOT get any of the 38.1 devices because of the SFI business methods, but the last reason above was the one that lets me get all idealistic.
Also, to be honest, I got mine before SCCA even discussed limits on the use. So luck has played a role.
Thanks Jake,
That's what I'm looking for. The isaac video of the hans falling off is kinda swaying me too. I've been reading the links and studying but personal opinions from racers I know or know of are great feedback as well.
And I get lap dances too if I make the same choice, right?:happy204:
Basically what Jake said, except I didn't get the steak and lap dances. I need to get on Greg about that.
I like the ISAAC concept a lot better than I ever liked the HANS concept. I don't like the HANS slipping out of the belts deal. I've heard too many things about getting stuck in the car for longer periods of time due to the HANS still attached and trying to get out of the car. I like the leave it behind concept, which lead me away from the R3 and the likes. We don't get into head on impacts as often as side impacts so that's another plus for ISAAC. SCCA still lets me run a non SFI H&N restraint. I got a deal on a used one.
I have run it for 2 years, have not "tested" it, but am very comfortable with it on.
HTH
BTW, on the flip side, if I had to run a HANS or not run anything at all, I would run a HANS, as something is still better than nothing. :shrug:
I find the Hans system to be very unconfrontable for the little bit that I have worn it. I wear it becuase it is what I have available to me. Dave now will not run without it. We bought the HANS device becasue of it's known reliability and we figured that if it is good enough for Pro racing all around the world it is good enough for us. (not defending that this is a logical way you make your decision) There video.. shows the hans failing becasue of the belt slipping off. and was loose enough to fall over the persons shoulder. I would like to see a similiar test with the proper belts and correct tension and see how the number compare then.
The belts did look loose in the video. I thought maybe impact speed made it look that way.
Anyone have any experience with the hans sliding tethers? Entry / egress seems to be a real issue with the hans.
I bought the ISAAC 3 years ago. I chose it because of the offset impact performance, and because I like the idea of controling the accelleration of the noggin, rather than the position of the noggin as the HANS does.
My 2nd choice would be the HANS, but only if I were forced into 38.1.
Friends that use the HANS have not had any issues with comfort/egress, and one of them did test it.
Groan. There goes the marketing budget.Quote:
Originally Posted by lateapex911
That is why my friend Dave R. will not drive without it.Quote:
Originally Posted by shwah
I am also an ISAAC user. As long as I continue to have that choice I will not wear anything else.
I believe it is the safest device currently on the market.
I don't have to worry about my belts coming off.
I don't have to worry about the device trapping me in the car.
I don't have to hope that my impact is straight on.
I also believe in the physics....the longer period of time you have to decelerate the better.
I don't care what "all the pro guys use" because I believe there are other forces at play. Speaking of Forces, John Force lost Eric Medlin in a NASTY accident. He looked at the entire safety package, had other respected professionals in the industry work with him on changes to minimize the likelihood of a repeat tragedy. This is an outspoken man with connections and money. He is obligated to wear a SFI 38.1 device, and he doesn't wear a HANS.
There isn't a F1 driver on the grid that wears an off the shelf HANS. So, they aren't wearing a HANS like you or I would buy. Their head surrounds and seats are very well designed. They are much better supported in offset impacts that most any sedan driver I have ever seen. Their HANS devices are optimized for their head position and seating angle. Their harnesses are also spaced to reduce the likelihood of the harnesses coming off in an impact.
Slight hi-jack. There is an ISAAC Intermediate for sale in the classifieds on this forum. It is for sale because its' owner (me) is taking a hiatus from racing for a couple of years. I hate to see it sit all that time.
Isaac. Numbers are better, mechanics are better, price was competitive, company gives a shit about its customers, no SFI payola/shakedown surcharge.
That an the lap dances.
K
Ooops! Was that supposed to be hush hush> Soooorry!Quote:
Originally Posted by gsbaker
***Groan. There goes the marketing budget.***
WHAT, cost of steak to high.....skip the steak.:o
*** we figured that if it is good enough for Pro racing all around the world it is good enough for us.***
As long as you implement the devises ALL the Pros implement to reduce the side load that the HANS will not reduce anywhere near equal to the Issac.
I upgraded my HANS to the sliding tethers after 4 years with the quick-release tethers. The bottom line is that they solve a non-issue. The "issue" with the old tethers was that the driver could not turn his head all the way to the side. In practice for a road racer, there's absolutely never a need to turn your head all that far. I believe it was a valid concern for drag racers, who were trying to look over their shoulder to see how far behind their competition was. But I never once noticed the limits in a road race.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Donnelly
Now with the sliding tethers, there's effectively no limit to how far you can turn your head.
As far as egress is concerned, the sliding tethers have no effect, since with the seat belts released, the yoke can move and you can turn your head fully even with the other tethers.
Yeah, what Kirk said.
__________________________________
If you feel the HANS is the best device for you....get quick release tethers so when you are trapped by your headrest/window net/cool suit tube/radio leads or anything else you can quickly release the device from your helmet.
Make certain you have a top quality HANS friendly seat, like a Recaro or Racetech model with side bolsters for your head (probably a good idea no matter which head and neck restraint you choose). Some devices offer a little more offset impact protection than others but you shouldn't rely solely on the head and neck restraint for offset or side impact protection. Especially if you have gone with a HANS.
Once you pop the belts you are free to get out of the car with a hans device. there is no additional attached devices. IF by horrible chance my car was on fire I am pretty sure I wouldn't be worring about ripping any drink tube or radio wire while exiting the car. Which would apply to both systems. The ISAAC seems to need an additional step to egress.
I don't want to contribute to a flame war. I like the idea of the Isaac better with damping and limiting the motion of your nogen. I have never used an Isaac system and can't contribute wihout hear say judgement. Teh majhority of the I am in a car at HDPE/PDX events I am still using the old donut. Once we finsih my IT car I will invest into something better.
I got picked at random to do the NASA bail-out test this past February and got out in less than 8 seconds - including undoing my Isaac.
K
I wear the sportsman sliding tether model of Hans, both road and circle track. The only time I notice it is sitting in grid waiting, its a bit uncomfortable on the shoulders. On the track, I never know its there.
Best thing about a head and neck restraint is that it holds your helmet up when you fall asleep, allowing you to nap comfortably- a worthwhile situation when you are racing after a group of late models who are trying to set the record for number of cars wrecked in one feature.
Not flaming. I was speaking to something that the HANS might get hung up on while trying to exit the car. More than one guy has been hung up on a headrest (Formula cars) or window net (sedans). The HANS now has quick release tethers that you don't need to release (still just the belts) under normal circumstances. Just next time Joey Hand is upside down with his car dripping fuel on him while his HANS is stuck in the window net the safety workers won't be asking him to climb back in the car to untangle himself or to remove his helmet to get out/away.Quote:
Originally Posted by quadzjr
I also prefer something that stays in the car when I am exiting. If I was a HANS wearer I'd probably practice undoing the harness AND the quick release pins every time I get out of the car. I won't have to think about it should I ever need to do it quickly.
<sort-of flaming just because I care>. Do yourself a favor....ditch the donut. They can actually ADD to the dangerous forces (fulcrum). Unless you are in a kart (no harnesses) I'd leave the donut in the trailer.
First of all I'll answer your questions Tom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Donnelly
R3, standard no options. Any non-SFI H&N aren't an option because one of the sanctioning bodies I race with requires it. I do like the idea of velocity and acceleration control offered by the ISSACS, but it's not SFI rated so that's a non-starter. Why the R3 over a HANS? The R3 comes standard with a quick release, also the R3 works no matter how loose your belts. It won't be affected by belt slip beause the fulcrum wraps around the rib cage. Finally, I feel like the R3 didn't set the SFI architecture like good Dr. over at HANS, with their less than scrupulous cornering of the market philosophy. So, in a sense it's the non-HANS SFI choice.
In general under "normal" racing conditions I agree. But, if you have a four-off for any reason, you need to clear over your shoulder. That's where I've had prolems with fixed tethers. In this case I'd pop the release to look over my shoulder, but once it's off it takes a minute to put back on....Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshS
:happy204: I can relate, so often being placed after the big-bore group (AS and ITE) that makes a habit of, if nothing else, thoroughly oiling-down the track before they're done... :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Streetwise guy
Back to the orig question - I have both an ISAAC and a HANS (Sportsman w/ sliding tethers). First one is for racing; been using since, I dunno, I think '02 or '03... tested it once pretty big. Bought it for price but more importantly the higher expected level of side-impact protection vs a HANS - don't have too many occasions to spear a concrete wall in IT racing, but getting t-boned or other side impacts are much more likely.
The HANS is for work, so can't comment on racing use, though I wouldn't have any concerns about using it as such. I will say the pressure on my collarbones etc sucks, usually come away with light bruises after only one or two sessions! Yes, that's with the pads.
But the whole 38.1 single-release thing bugs me (WRT the ISAAC), and I'd have a hard time recommending that anyone else invest money in an ISAAC these days; not because the device doesn't work, but simply because it's a bit of a gamble, seems to me, that it will continue to be allowed even in SCCA... everywhere else has already legislated it out (by requiring a 38.1-compliant device). It just seems like the writing's on the wall, IMO, and the only question remaining is how many more years are we gonna get out of our ISAACs before we're forced to switch by the lawyers.
I expect that sometime in the future, within the next 5 years (solely my guess) I'll end up having to replace my ISAAC with a 38.1-compliant device. That said, I hate the idea of giving any of my money to Hubbard-Downing, rewarding their marketing strategy and tactics. OTOH, it's still the original and best 38.1 device, it'd seem. So this other new device (forget the name already, but it was posted here) is much more appealing... the basic function/effectiveness of the HANS, it would seem, without rewarding Hubbard-Downing... lower price is an added bonus, but I guess that largely reflects the profit margin on the HANS...
Of course, I expect that my next racecar won't have a roof either, so that will help with egress concerns... ;)
My thoughts exactlyQuote:
Originally Posted by 924Guy
I fully agree. I also race karts, quads, and have a sportsman class drag truck. Though soon I don't think my body is going to let me run the quads anymore and the go-karts in is fun but also bruises me up quite a bit. In anycase I assure you that when my IT car is finished I will be purchasing something other than a new donut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl
I went with the HANS. Cost wasnt the reason since my family surprised me with a gift card that covered most of the cost. But seeing where everyone was going with their rules I stuck with a 38.1 device and the HANS was the better fit for me over the options at the time. There are more 38.1 options now.
That's a good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knestis
Some people criticize the Isaac because it takes extra time to get out, but in the bigger picture, I'd bet that the extra time it takes pales in comparison to the time difference we see from people who actually practice getting out.
Not to mention the old vs young, tall vs short, big vs skinny comparisons.
Thanks for all the feedback. I'll be making a decision soon. The information about the donut was news to me. Guess I'll leave it at home.
Thanks again.
before the start of the 2009 season, they'll be 2 new choices on the market.... and hopefully shipping. You might want to wait until Jan 1 to make a choice.
1) Defnder
2) Leatt Moto-R
and with PRI just 6 weeks away who knows what else that will bring.
I currently have a HANS Sport with sliding tethers.