Restart Rules Clarification

At the October 19th Pro IT race we were under starters orders for the restart. The lead pack of three cars at the front and two lap cars, ITB and SSM 4th and 5th and then my car, ITS.

When the green flag waived for the restart I laid back not being sure that I was able to pass the ITB or SSM cars until I had crossed start finish. Laying back killed my chance at running with the lead pack - these guys were 15-20 car lengths ahead by the time I hit the gas at start/finish and passed the lappers.

My question is - do I have to lay back until I cross start finish or can I blow by these guys the moment the green waives?

On a typcical start - not restart - I pass before start finish when the green waives. That is permitted, correct?

I looked at the GCR but didn't see anything but this entry in 5.5 under the oval track racing rules.

"Cars shall not improve position prior to crossing start/finish line. (Pulling out of line alongside the car in front of you is improving your position.)"

Have at it rules gurus :-)

The race is on as soon as the lead car sees the green flag.

Yep, when the green waves it's time to go. Also, if you are further back and can't see the flag itself, watch when the corner workers drop the double yellow - then it's on !!:eclipsee_steering:

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Originally Posted by GBugg

The race is on as soon as the lead car sees the green flag.

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What George said - green means go, wherever you are on track.

Concur. Green means "go, go, go, go, go, go!!!!"

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Originally Posted by Greg Amy

Concur. Green means "go, go, go, go, go, go!!!!"

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Don't you mean Boogity Boogity Boogity?

Ben, you've probably seen other sanctioning bodies impose the "no passing before the line" rule. I, for one, don't like it. Fortunately, in SCCA, it's all up for grabs when the starter flinches and the green moves.

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Originally Posted by lateapex911

Ben, you've probably seen other sanctioning bodies impose the "no passing before the line" rule. I, for one, don't like it. Fortunately, in SCCA, it's all up for grabs when the starter flinches and the green moves.

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I normally shift before the flag comes back down for the first "wave" :D

We'll poopity, poopity, poo. I layed back for nothing.

Thanks for the clarification.

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Originally Posted by benspeed

We'll poopity, poopity, poo. I layed back for nothing.

Thanks for the clarification.

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To many lapping days in the Chebby...not enough racin'... ;)

I think that they are changing the rule about cars that drop-out on the pace lap; you can move up in line without being deemed to have passed under the yellow (we all did this anyways).

However, forgetting the cars dropping out scenario, when you see the green (or more precisely, when you see the last corner's yellows being dropped if you are at the blunt end of the grid) it is then pedal to the metal whereever you may be on the track--pass at will.

I understand the confusion, coming from Europe I was also used to the "no passing before start-finish line" rule.

Thanks for clarifying!

Does the waving green supercede any double yellows which still maybe be standing.

Example, lets say you are a little further down the pack at a start (ITA for example in an ECR with S and R cars) at Road Atlanta. The Green waves when the lead pack is coming down the hill, but being 10 cars back, you are looking at the worker station on the left after the bridge which still has double yellows. Your crew is on the radio saying "green". What do you do?

-Tom

GO!

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Originally Posted by trhoppe

Does the waving green supercede any double yellows which still maybe be standing.

Example, lets say you are a little further down the pack at a start (ITA for example in an ECR with S and R cars) at Road Atlanta. The Green waves when the lead pack is coming down the hill, but being 10 cars back, you are looking at the worker station on the left after the bridge which still has double yellows. Your crew is on the radio saying "green". What do you do?

-Tom

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The worker radio net is "supposed" to tell all stations to drop the double yellow when the green is shown, obviously there is going to be a little delay due to two sets of human reaction times, but it's better than nothing if you're so far back you can't see the starter and you don't have a radio.

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Originally Posted by trhoppe

Does the waving green supercede any double yellows which still maybe be standing.

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No.

Consider the possibility where you're deep in the pack, the green waves, and somewhere mid-pack ahead of you a couple of Spec'ers get together and spin...

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Your crew is on the radio saying "green". What do you do?

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Though the probability is that, as Ed describes, the workers are just slow to drop the double, your safest and most conservative move is to follow the direction of the local flags. You eliminate the risk of a possible problem ahead, or that the workers may be both slow to drop *and* quick to notice the PUY... :shrug:

Always follow the directives of the locals. - GA

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Originally Posted by Greg Amy

No.

Consider the possibility where you're deep in the pack, the green waves, and somewhere mid-pack ahead of you a couple of Spec'ers get together and spin...

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Greg, you are going to want to stab me, but at that point it wouldn't be a standing double yellow...

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Originally Posted by benspeed

We'll poopity, poopity, poo. I layed back for nothing.

Thanks for the clarification.

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Ben,
If you have radio's and your crew chief is yelling go go go, even if you can't see the flag, kick it in the ass and start passing.:D

GCR 6.2.2.G (highlights mine):

"Upon determining that the approaching field is at a constant slow speed, well bunched and in line, and close enough that the majority of the drivers can see the flag, the Starter shall suddenly and continuously wave the green flag, until all cars have passed the start line. The race shall be under way throughout the field at the instant the green flag is waved and passing may occur at any point, within reasonable safety standards."

But you're right, there's nothing in the GCR that is as explicit about restarts.

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Originally Posted by CRallo

Greg, you are going to want to stab me, but at that point it wouldn't be a standing double yellow...

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No, that's certainly a valid point, but...do you want to risk 5 points on your license from a corner worker calling in that you passed while they were holding up a double yellow, versus the advantage of using your ITS car to pass a Rabbit Gti for one spot?

I most assuredly start "boogity, boogity, boogity-ing" as soon as Matt yells "green, green, green", but I just can't see passing someone under The Bridge with a double-yellow still held up at the bottom of the Downhill...just sayin'... :shrug:

You should always follow the local corner stations flag signals, no flag means you are green and can pass... a single/double yellow means no passing.

A few years back I avoided a major accident but found myself at the very back of the pack on a restart (when my car was running good!!!). On the restart the starters stand never waived the green, but the flag stations dropped their yellows! I charged ahead and past just about the entire field. It was a great move until the race was stopped and went back to the previous lap positions.

Also I have been in races where a double yellow was put out then pulled long before a pace car was put out or before the field caught up to itself.

Raymond "Ben I hope I was giving good point byes!!!" Blethen

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Originally Posted by Greg Amy

...do you want to risk 5 points on your license from a corner worker calling in that you passed while they were holding up a double yellow, versus the advantage of using your ITS car to pass a Rabbit Gti for one spot?

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OK, I'll start by saying that I work corners a lot. More than I race. The radio or landline net will tell the corners when the green flies and they should drop their yellows. I can't imagine a flagger calling you in for passing after that call.

HOWEVER ...

a) that call could be late.

b) there might be something else nasty ahead of you, but it should be covered by a standing or waving SINGLE yellow, not a standing DOUBLE yellow, possibly accessorized with a debris flag.

I have also seen where a flag station close to the start finish line was told to drop their yellow before the green to avoid confusion, but in these cases they were instructed to hide the flag before the pack came in view.
If I see the double yellow being dropped I go, if I see or hear the green come out I go.

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Originally Posted by benspeed

We'll poopity, poopity, poo. I layed back for nothing.

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This is not the Ben I know ... :shrug:

The Ben I remember hit the throttle first and asked questions later. We need to get you back in a proper ITS frame of mind! :smilie_pokal:

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Steve Ulfelder
Flatout Motorsports
05 ITS

Thanks for all the comments - good discussion. Raymond - great point bye's.

Steve - I must return to my "Banzai Ben" of yore!

Do any of you recall when we were running the double chicane at NHIS - I qualified about 11th and went up the grid hinting that I might time the flag "perfectly"? I jumped a moment before the flag, passed the whole field and was first in T1.

After about 8 laps I figured I had gotten away with murder and then the blag flag with my number was beckoning me. :-)

I disagree with your logic here Greg.

First, applying the ITS to ITC scenario is a case by case basis.... in the bigger picture, it's not entirely pertinent. In the old days at the Glen for example, there were 70 car fields, and mixed classes, with a start finish line that was very close to the beginning of the straight. That setup meant that a large portion of the field never saw the green start wave. Certainly slower classes were racing car vs car, (As opposed to ITS vs ITC) and any lag in responding to the green could cost the win between equal cars.

The logic that you should stand pat when the double yellow is standing is void, because if there is a start, and there is an incident, (That would require a double yellow) the proper event occurance is:
Double yellow > Remove double yellow > No flag > waving yellow >
then:
> standing yellow or > Remove standing yellow or
> Display double yelllow OR Black all OR Red.
((Leaving out the debris/passing flags for the sake of clarity)

Now obviously, that first line would occur in super rapid succession, but, the yellow WOULD wave before returning to double staning yellow.

A proper flag station won't go from double yellow directly to double yellow whtout a waving yellow in there, and I'd debate my point with the CS about that if I needed to.

For those with the luxury of having a person with you to help on the radio, I think the action is obvious, matt it on "Green". For those of us without that luxury, we have to take second choice (And the lag that goes with it) of the double yellow dropping, because it's better than nothing. The other option is to key off another car near you that you know has a radio, and go on his move.

The only situation where you could be wrong going when the double yelllows are out is if your radio guy is messing with you, or there is some radio confusion. Now, I've never had that luxury, but I understand the procedure in place to avoid that confusion is that the radio guy/girl, watches the starter, and keys the mike approaching the start, and repeats some word like, "wait....wait...wait...." (The word is chosen to NOT sound like "Green") , and when the flag comes out, says "Green green green". And that procedure is done to avoid confusion and mistakes. I'm told it works well.

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Originally Posted by Greg Amy

No.

Consider the possibility where you're deep in the pack, the green waves, and somewhere mid-pack ahead of you a couple of Spec'ers get together and spin...

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Unpossible. A Spec Miata would not outqualify me. :)

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Though the probability is that, as Ed describes, the workers are just slow to drop the double, your safest and most conservative move is to follow the direction of the local flags. You eliminate the risk of a possible problem ahead, or that the workers may be both slow to drop *and* quick to notice the PUY... :shrug:

Always follow the directives of the locals. - GA

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As someone above said, shouldn't it be a single or waving yellow at that point?

-Tom

Guys, I'm not arguing with your logic; you're making perfect sense. But, you're basically trying to logic yourself into a clear violation of the GCR (6.11, "Flags"). There's no - zero - allowance in the GCR for ignoring local flags simply because the corners workers have (or you believe they may have) failed to properly display (or not display) them.

You may very well "win" an argument like this at the track. All I'm saying is that I'd rather be on this forum going "poopity, poopity, poo" than in the steward's tower going, "homina, homina, huh?"

:shrug:

GA

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Originally Posted by lateapex911

I disagree with your logic here Greg.

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I actually think you're both correct. Yes, as we all know by rule there should never be green and double-yellow flags displayed at the same time. When the starter drops the green you should be free to go racing wherever you are on the track at that point. And I would bet 99.9% of the time if you were called in for PUY after the green flag was waived you would be vindicated.

At the same time, however, the GCR doesn't explicitly give us the option of deciding whether or not to obey a flag, even if is displayed in error. Section 6.11.1 states The names and described flags below are used in racing to convey the commands or information indicated. They shall be obeyed immediately and without question. So, are we now going to say that it's ok to disobey a flag station, as long as we know (or think we know) they are wrong? There is a reason why some things are absolute...

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Originally Posted by RSTPerformance

You should always follow the local corner stations flag signals, no flag means you are green and can pass... a single/double yellow means no passing.

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Correct. The flag you see is the official course condition for that part of the track.

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Originally Posted by CaptainWho

I can't imagine a flagger calling you in for passing after that call.

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Nor can I, but if it is called in, the offending driver won't have a leg on which to stand because the official course condition for that part of the track is the flag you see.

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Originally Posted by dickita15

I have also seen where a flag station close to the start finish line was told to drop their yellow before the green to avoid confusion, but in these cases they were instructed to hide the flag before the pack came in view.

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Just to be clear... an official flag station is told to drop its double yellow while the course condition is double yellow? If that's the case, it's just plain wrong, period. When that station doesn't display the double yellow, it tells the drivers that the course is GREEN. Racing has (re)commenced. You are free to pass any vehicle including that fancy street car with the yellow flashing lights. Most drivers won't be foolish enough to pass the safety car, but if I'm back in row 7 and can not see the safety car, then if that station isn't displaying the double yellow, I'm free to pass.

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Originally Posted by lateapex911

The logic that you should stand pat when the double yellow is standing is void, because if there is a start, and there is an incident, (That would require a double yellow) the proper event occurance is:
Double yellow > Remove double yellow > No flag > waving yellow >
then:
> standing yellow or > Remove standing yellow or
> Display double yelllow OR Black all OR Red.
((Leaving out the debris/passing flags for the sake of clarity)

Now obviously, that first line would occur in super rapid succession, but, the yellow WOULD wave before returning to double staning yellow.

A proper flag station won't go from double yellow directly to double yellow whtout a waving yellow in there, and I'd debate my point with the CS about that if I needed to.

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Unless the station is the one with the incident, going DY to no flag to DY is the proper order. There would be no standing or waving flag. A station could skip the no flag part of this if it misses a radio call - something that happens through inattention or crappy radios.

Green. "All stations go green"
Station misses call. Immediate incident at start.
"All stations full course caution"
Station hears that and never drops it's flags.

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Originally Posted by Greg Amy

Guys, I'm not arguing with your logic; you're making perfect sense. But, you're basically trying to logic yourself into a clear violation of the GCR (6.11, "Flags"). There's no - zero - allowance in the GCR for ignoring local flags simply because the corners workers have (or you believe they may have) failed to properly display (or not display) them.

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What he said.

Ok guys, here is one for you. True story, happened at NSS during the night time Enduro in June. Let me set the stage, it was dusky but more than ample light to see all flags at all stations including the start. I was working as the "logger" at race control at the time.

Safety car led the pack around and assembled them for the start and then pulled into the pits. All stations were instructed to drop the double yellow for the start and the starter had the green in his hand and was prepared to wave it start the race.

The ENTIRE field followed the safety car into the HOT pits. Safety car stopped at pit out and assumed its station in case it was needed during the race. The entire field remained in formation all the way around the track, at a slow, "get ready for the start" speed. There were NO FLAGS DISPLAYED AT ANY CORNER STATION.

The first lap was a scored lap and the field recieved a green flag when the approched the starter stand a second time.

I was about to come unglued hoping someone at the back of the pack would pull out and pass the entire field. It had been hammered into my head that the absence of a yellow flag (or red) meant that the race was on.

I fully understand a local yellow after the green has waved. For me that is a different issue that you guys have already covered quite well :)

FWIW, there had not been any discussion regarding number of laps before a start by the Operating Steward or Chief Steward.

So what would you have done if you had been in the pack and noticed the absence of ANY flag at ANY station as you puttered around waiting on the green?

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Originally Posted by pballance

So what would you have done if you had been in the pack and noticed the absence of ANY flag at ANY station as you puttered around waiting on the green?

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Go, go, go!! That actually happened at a driver's school at LRP.

I was an instructor in the Big Bore group (in my NX) and we were doing the end-of-the-weekend practice starts. Normally they'd give the guys the green at S/F and they'd race to T5 (?), where there would be a FCY and the racers would re-group for the next start.

Did 3-4 of those, but on the last one we came upon T5 and there were no double-yellows; despite this, everyone started lining up nicely two-by-two... me and one student in a small car simply drove around all the Big Bore cars and were on our merry way, with those guys wondering what just happened...a few GT-1 drivers got some good schoolin'...

I cannot imagine a full field of licensed drivers following a pace car into the hot pits then going slowly around the track with no flags displayed...that's like a heads-up ITC driver's wet dream...

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Originally Posted by pballance

The ENTIRE field followed the safety car into the HOT pits. Safety car stopped at pit out and assumed its station in case it was needed during the race. The entire field remained in formation all the way around the track, at a slow, "get ready for the start" speed. There were NO FLAGS DISPLAYED AT ANY CORNER STATION.

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That's just BEYOND bizarre. I can see how rows 3 and back would follow, thinking they missed something in some meeting, (LOL), but why on earth would the front runners.????