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MY '79 VW Rabbit got bent badly :( at IRP a while ago. It has been replaced by an '84 ITB VW GTI.:happy204: Were I to build the car to the ITC spec line - 1.7 w/CIS, 13' wheels, solid rotors - would this be a genuine C car, or were there chassis fabrication/chassis material differences between the baseline Rabbit and the GTI?:shrug: Thanks for your time and input.
Jim
The chassis is the same. The GTI would have 1.8L engine, 5 speed trans (most Rabbits had a 4 speed), vented rotors, and different springs and sway bars. Not a "plain" Rabbit by any means.
For it to be a "legal" ITC chassis you would have to wait for the VIN rule to be passed.
Or you could swap all the VIN numbers from the old chassis to the new.:blink:
Good Luck.
Dave Parker
WDCR HP #97
2007 MARRS HP Champion
you would also need to change the rad support and tailights as they are different.Quote:
Originally Posted by dave parker
vin rule would be great if it was passed :026:
Dave, the GCR spec line for ITC '81-'84 VW Rabbit calls for a 5 speed, whose ratios elude me at this moment. It is not the 5 speed close ratio box in the GTI. It is the only gearbox listed.
Sandro, not to belabor any point, but will the wrong taillights and radiator support really make me any faster? I realize the point you are making, and I'm not trying to slide on the rules. Would the rad support give me that much chassis stiffness?
You asked about legality and the above info is correct. To be SURE, you'd need to have the VIN number rule rescinded and on your side, and every single detail would have to be correct. The primary argument we had to counter when lobbying to make the VIN rule go away was that people would cheat, so please do us a favor and go the whole way on the stuff people can see.
K
All US-delivered 81-84 Rabbits were built in Westmoreland PA, thus have the same taillights and rad structure, as Dave noted. However, Dave is mistaken in that pretty much all US-built Rabbits - except for the diesels - got 5-speeds. There were exceptions, but they weren't the norm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpa
Sandro, are you referring to the earlier small-taillight cars, pre-1981? Those were all built in Germany. The US-built GTi didn't have different parts from the base US-built hare. The only German-built Rabbits that we got here in the US during that period was the convertibles.
GA
I posted this scenario due to the fact that the gentleman who was at the wheel of my '79 Rabbit at the time it got bent replaced the car with the '84. He will pull the engine/transaxle after the enduro at IRP in July which leaves me a month to be ready for the Spectacular at MO. I am not attempting to circumvent any rule nor build something that flies under anyone's radar, I just happen to have a decent collection of ITC running gear for an A1 car. My 1.6 race motor has three races on it, I have alloys for the car, and spares for just about any emergency. I won't cheat - period - as that is the lowest of the low in my opinion. I haven't been in this game long enough to know all the ins and outs, and that is why I posted my question regarding the legality of the conversion. At this point in time were I to change the VIN's, if I understand what Knetsis is saying, I would still have a racecar that is illegal. I'm not playing dumb, gents, I just am not sure what is a legal course of action per the rules and I most definitely do not want to make any enemies in the IT community. This is some of the best racing on the planet and a fun group of people to hang out with. Again, thanks for your input and insight in regards to this question of mine, I very much appreciate it.
OK, Jim, I think I better understand your situation.
Under the current rules - through the end of this calendar year - the rules stipulate that the chassis/VIN/drivetrain must all match. In other words, in order to build a 1.6L Rabbit, you must build using a chassis/VIN that came with a 1.6L engine. Sandro is correct in that regard.
However, from 1/09 forward, that "VIN rule" is rescinded. At that point, you "may" use a chassis to build a car but not have the VIN match; HOWEVER, you cannot create a model which didn't exist before.
Example: the ITB Rabbit GTi had an engine VIN code of "D" (was it?). Ergo, currently it would be illegal to take a 1983 1.7L ("C"?) Rabbit chassis, install all the GTI gear, and run it in ITB as a GTI, even though it is, in all functionality, the same car as one originally delivered as a GTI. Why? Solely because the VIN is incorrect and doesn't match the running gear.
However, effective 01/09 it *would* be legal to do so.
You, unfortunately, are in a tough situation. As far as I know, all US-built, large-taillight Rabbits were either 1.7L or 1.8L cars. To cpmete in ITC with your 1.6L running gear, through 12/08 you must use a German, 1.6L VIN chassis. However, from 01/09 forward, to race legally in ITC with a 1.6L, you *must* build using a smaller-taillight, German-built chassis *unless* you use a US-built, larger-taillight chassis as a baseline *and* convert all parts that are different to German specs.
Yes, it can get confusing, but if you keep in mind the cardinal rule* then you know what you have to do.
Greg
*The post-VIN cardinal rule: You cannot create a model which didn't exist before, in each and every detail.
Another way to think about the situation - post VIN rule reversal - will be that every part of the car is just a part of the car, including the pieces of stamped sheet steel that make up the chassis. As long as ALL of those parts are the way they should be on the car defined in your ITCS spec line, it doesn't matter where they came from, even if that was a different model of car.
It might be my rallying experience but I really quit thinking about the "car" as a thing, 20 years or so ago. Shells are just another piece, albeit a big one that holds all of the really important parts in their relative positions, and gives the driver a place to sit...
We are pretty confident that the VIN rule will go away but there is a small (although non-zero) chance that something could derail it. I'd be irresponsible to tell you to just go ahead with your build but I know of a couple of guys who are doing just that.
K
Greg,
Thanks for the clarification on the VIN. If I were to build a '84 ITC Rabbit with a 1.7L, standard ratio 5 speed with the correct date coding, and 13" rims, then I am still illegal due to the VIN saying that this particular chassis was built originally as a GTI. Am I correct in my thought process?
You are correct for this year, but it would be legal next year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpa
That said - and I'll be your little shoulder devil to Kirk's angel - if the car is functionally the same as a "true" 1.7L Rabbit, I sincerely doubt anyone will have any beef with you doing it. Or even notice. Just ensure everything is "correct". - GA
I second what Greg says. Build it and go have some fun....
...keep it legal to the spec line ..what's the diff ?
-John
My apologies to Kirk, I serve notice to all of my competitors in ITC of my intent to build a 1.7L Rabbit in time to compete at MidOhio in August. The car, if completed in time, will be available for your inspection/protest/finetooth combing upon my arrival. If it fails tech or is protested, I'll put it on the trailer and take it home with no ill feelings. Thank you all for your input regarding this matter.
NO need for apologies - I proposed the rule change because I think it's the right thing to do. I just have to walk a fine line since I'm pseudo-official now. :)
K
Greg, Kirk, Dave, Sandro, Rabbit05 (I hope I didn't leave anyone out)
Is there a site, or better yet, an individual that can tell me what will be the difference between the GTI and a garden variety Rabbit? The obvious - motor, transaxle, wheels, CIS, badging - I pretty much have a handle on, it's the nuance stuff that will trip me up. Heaven knows, I wouldn't want to be protested/disqualified for having the wrong windshield washer bottle in the car. Thanks, gents.
This is a good place. The above as well as others (including Bill Miller, who's been noticeably absent lately) have a very good knowledgebase of the old Rabbit chassis. Hell, I owned one new, and worked at a dealership when they were being sold.
Generally speaking, items of significance to building an IT car: 81-84 Rabbits delivered in the US, with the exception of the convertible, were built in the same factory in PA. Other than IT-irrelevant items such as interior/trim and suspension, as best I can recall, the GTi got the following changes in production versus the regular Rabbit:
- 1.8L JH engine
- close-ratio transaxle
- 14" wheels
- vented front rotors (same calipers as other Kelsey Hayes-equipped Rabbits)
- larger rear drums (? Need to check on this)
- aluminum bumpers
- rear wiper standard (optional on other Rabbits)
- driver's front wiper had a wind deflector
- front air dam standard
Did I miss anything?
Nah... you just need two of the VINs to be correct as long as everything else is what suppose to be on the legal car. We don't need all of the VINs to match - just two.Quote:
Originally Posted by dave parker
In an automobile and other wheeled vehicles, the differential allows each of the driving wheels to rotate at different speeds.:pQuote:
Originally Posted by Rabbit05
Greg
I had to walk out into the lot with a jack and impact to check, but the rear brakes on the 83 GTi that I drive to work everyday are the same as the rear brakes (diameter and shoes) on the 80 Scirocco (ITC racecar) and the 77 Rabbit (rusty chassis, waiting for me to part it out) that I have here. However, brake shoe hardware does appear to have changed at some point.
Jim
I understand the situation you are in (been there and made the swap including VIN's). I think that you "should" be ok as long as you aren't finishing on the podium. Good luck with the project.
cheers
Dave Parker
WDCR HP#97
2007 MARRS HP Champion
I agree 110% with you. I just wanted to make you aware not that you complete the build and get to the track and someone starts complaining. See Greg's post I might have been mistaken anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpa
Personally I would not complain one bit, there is actually a gentleman than runs in ITC usually by himself(its the west coast where if you don't have 500hp people think you aren't racing) and I told him if he just swapped the engine, tranny and brakes I would never complain about it so he could run in ITB, even offered to help do the actual swap. So personally I am in favor of dropping the VIN rule.
What bumper's were on the 1979? Did they have the 5 mph bumper "shock absorber" type assemblies like the 1981 units? I had a 1975 Scirocco that didn't have those bumpers. When did they change that?
The chassis is the same, but some of the external parts are different Brake light assemblies or round vs square headlights are a difference, but the only real potential issues are "carb vs F.I."
Tim,
'79 bumpers are the 5 mph chrome railroad ties common with period. The GTI that I now have was factory with the al-u-min-ium bumpers. A plain wrapper '84 Rabbit has the railroad ties on it (figures), so I will have to find them if I go ITC. I haven't heard any pro's or con's regarding the 1.7L and whether it is worth building. The 1.6L in my '79 really brought the car to life last year when I put it in, which is why I hate the idea of getting rid of it. The downside to the '79 car is the fact that there are some flex issues with the chassis, and the dwindling ITC fields.
Jim, the 1.7 is a TERRIBLE option. It's basically a 1.6 bore with a longer stroke. I have an IT prepped 1.7 short block if you want it. Shipping would be the limiting cost factor. The "H" block from the Chrysler Omni is a good alternative for a 1.6 since the bore is the same. The early FSV's that used the 1.6 crank used the 1.7 "H" block since the journals.8 are larger. Stay with the 1.6 in ITC, or move to the 1.8 and go to ITB.
Tim,
As I was looking at the spec line for the 1.7 I noticed the bore/stroke on the motor and thought to myself "Slow revving motor". At this point, I believe my options are a) Repair my '79, or b) Sell the running gear & spares I don't need and go ITB. Option B is looking better all the time.
Are the pan rails and the exhaust port spacing the same on both the 1.6 and 1.8? I want to use my oil pan and Techtonics header if they are.
Jim, I am the guy that last had your GTI. I just tried to include my e-mail address, but being that I am a new guy, the forum won't let me. I will be happy to answer any questions about the car........Alex
Jim, your oil pan and header will work with either the 1.6 or the 1.8. I know since the current header and baffle'd pan were on my original 1.6 / 1.7 Scirocco.
Shocks and struts are the same too.
whent through manual. RN and RU share the same head and block, just different stroke.
Other ones might share the same head and block but different stroke and cam.
Just remember, that not much on the "internal" side is interchangeable between the 1.6 and the 1.8. Maybe the cam, but then the 1.6 and 1.7 only had mechanical heads, but the 1.8 had both the mechanical and the hyrdo.
External ancillaries, oil pan, intake manifold, header, F.I. water pump, etc. should be able to work on either. All of the suspension also can be exchanged between any A1 chassis, except for the the 1982 Scirocco. It's a hybrid between the A1 chassis and the A2 body style.
The Scirocco 2 is still all A1 on the chassis stuff.
Gee whiz Greg, I didn't know you cared! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Greg Amy
You've got most of it. Other items that were different were the fuel distributor and the throttle body. Rear drums are the same for all of the Westmorland Rabbits. In fact, I think they're the same for all the Rabbits.
In addition to the different fuel distributor / flapper valve and the throttle body, the GTI's (not GTi !) came w/ a full-throttle enrichment switch that was attached to the throttle body. What this did was make the lambda sensor go open-loop at full throttle.
One of the things I'm not sure of, is if you could get a non-GTI Rabbit w/ functional vent windows. I know that some of the GTI's came w/ fixed windows, I just don't know if any of the 'regular' Rabbits came w/ the functional ones.
Back to lurk mode!
Yes, standard front and rear sway bars on the GTI and not on the Rabbit. BTW, the rear drums are the same size.
I know, since my Wabbit started out as a 1981 "S" model Wabbit. Same basic interior as the GTI, but a little different steering wheel, and like Greg pointed out, all of the same other stuff.
BTW, my 81 "S" model didn't come with a radio either.
And all of the VW's use that terrible carpet glue, and fender attaching muck too.