Why little interest in ITC?

I was reading in the NARRC points thread about such few ITC drivers(and have seen it while flagging)and was wondering if anyone could enlighten me why. I am an aspiring racer and can't decide between karts or IT. It would be nice to have people to race against:eclipsee_steering: and I would like to go IT racing and ITC seems like a good beginner starting point, but the fields are well not there. I have read down south they have large fields of ITC cars and don't know if it will come back to the N.E. or not.:shrug:

There are some good conversations on that topic buried here somewhere but opinions differ. I tend to think it's because...

1. The eligible cars have fewer fans than they used to, and new cars aren't being added to the class.

2. It's possible to go faster, being about as competitive, in bigger fields, for not a lot more dough, with an ITB or ITA car.

3. Perceptions of "what a racing car is" have changed as performance and consumers' expectations of speed have increased.

K

Could be the old ITC cars up North have rusted away...
while they are still available here in the South...:D

Todd

I know down in Summit Point they have many ITC entries. At Pocono earlier in May we had more than a hand full. Good cars and drivers.

I know Russ Horton ([email protected]) up in Stockbridge, MA has a ITC Rabbit for sale (car is in Torrington I think), good reliable car. This was Brian Musnicks old lap record holder at LRP.

With NJMP opening we expect the fields from NARRC and MARRS to mingle, we do expect the ITC entry to increase.

ITC is a great way to get involved, plus a Rabbit has plenty of parts if needed and a lot of expert drivers in the NE.

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Originally Posted by dtanthon

I know down in Summit Point they have many ITC entries.

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Not anymore. Most of us jumped ship over the winter. MARRS 1 and MARRS 2 both had 4 or 5 cars. No more 15 car fields :(

Brian's car had the track record at NHIS , not LRP..


..and one reason for the class dieing out , in my opinion , is that the grouping with SM, helped kill ITC in the NE. Plus the older cars doesnt help either. (NE weather)

I think it is a great class to start in though , you learn to drive smooth , with a low HP car you cant afford to make mistake. Ask Tim K, about some of the great races we have had. There was a time when there was about 5 of that could win and one race , at Lime Rock ,you could throw a blanket over all of us at the checkered....

Fun times !!

-John

Among the other reasons mentioned, people like yourself see that there are very few ITC cars being run and want to participate in a class with higher entries. So instead of adding to ITC, another class is chosen and things keep snowballing.

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Originally Posted by Rabbit05

Brian's car had the track record at NHIS , not LRP..


..and one reason for the class dieing out , in my opinion , is that the grouping with SM, helped kill ITC in the NE. Plus the older cars doesnt help either. (NE weather)

I think it is a great class to start in though , you learn to drive smooth , with a low HP car you cant afford to make mistake. Ask Tim K, about some of the great races we have had. There was a time when there was about 5 of that could win and one race , at Lime Rock ,you could throw a blanket over all of us at the checkered....

Fun times !!

-John

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John - Fun Times Indeed!

Doug Koza - Photographer
http://the16v.com/SCCA/092703narrc2/images/dsc_3606.jpg

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Originally Posted by Rabbit05

Brian's car had the track record at NHIS , not LRP..


..and one reason for the class dieing out , in my opinion , is that the grouping with SM, helped kill ITC in the NE. Plus the older cars doesnt help either. (NE weather)

I think it is a great class to start in though , you learn to drive smooth , with a low HP car you cant afford to make mistake. Ask Tim K, about some of the great races we have had. There was a time when there was about 5 of that could win and one race , at Lime Rock ,you could throw a blanket over all of us at the checkered....

Fun times !!

-John

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I believe John V has the LRP record with a 104.9 in "C" - smokin lap John.

Here's one of my favorite mosquitos - Always added dimension to the ITC/SM races.
http://the16v.com/SCCA/05/lrp1/images/DSC_7666.jpg

Our class--ITC--is a vintage category. There are too few newer cars with small motors.

The newest one allowed--a new Beetle--is too heavy.

However, with gas prices rising and manufacturers downsizing their offerings, this class can make a comeback!

My racing history is mostly with MCSCC with a few SCCA races thrown in. Over the years since I sold my ITC car (1995) I have seen ITC shrink here in the midwest as well. Last race I went to had no ITC cars & 1 ITD car. ITB is not that big either but it at least has cars. ITA is where the racing is. 20 cars is not uncommon with half the field SM cars running dual classes.

The only thing I can see to increase the numbers is to re-organize the cars classed in ITB & ITA and adding the slowest ITB cars to ITC. I don't think that would go over very well with the membership though! Adding a car here & there has been done but a total re-do would take a major effort that may just get shot down in the end.

Per the GCR, you have to go back to '95 or older(new Beetle notwithstanding) to find an ITC car. Most of these cars are like unobtainium and like Knestis stated, they don't have a strong following anymore.
Even if you found a decent, rust free candidate to build into an IT car, you would probably have to deal with any number of the following problems.
-Parts are scarce since the car you purchased is 20-30 years old
-13" wheels? Good luck finding those unless you want to spend as much for wheels as you did for the car.
-The 22 year old working at Ground Control has never even heard of your car much less have any suspension upgrades for it.
-You get done building it and realize you could have bought a faster, well sorted ITB car for less money and been on the track months sooner.

I hope Joeg is right and ITC makes a comeback. What's the point of racing if there's no one to race with?

ITC is great, when there is competition! Then again, I guess ITW would be too.... The Honda has been fun, and reasonably cheap... ultra reliable, and I run with some ITB cars. The big run groups are down in Florida, or maybe thats a rumor too...

Anyway, if you want a reliable ITC car, I know where one is :D

hoop

I keep buildong "vintage ITC cars; have one under construction right now. You have to know your parts and where to get them.

It can be somewhat daunting (and overseas part sourcing is expen$ive).

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Originally Posted by joeg

Our class--ITC--is a vintage category. There are too few newer cars with small motors.

The newest one allowed--a new Beetle--is too heavy.

However, with gas prices rising and manufacturers downsizing their offerings, this class can make a comeback!

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is it too soon for the ITAC to classify the smart car, yaris and fit? :D

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Originally Posted by joeg

However, with gas prices rising and manufacturers downsizing their offerings, this class can make a comeback!

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It very well could - in like eight years or so. Assuming the gas prices remain higher, and go higher, It'll be a few years before the auto manufactures will be able to shift production to smaller cars with smaller engines to provide you with modern ITC cars. Then you have the five year classing rule that exists in IT.

Isn't it just cheaper to get a used A car, or even an S car, and race that? Used race cars are pennies on the dollar and I've never really understood the argument that the C cars are all THAT much cheaper to race than A or S. I can see some savings on brakes as the weight is lower, but it isn't like 1/2 as much or anything of that nature.

Wouldn't even the Fit and Yaris put a beat down on the standard crop of ITC cars? Yaris has 106hp, the Fit 109hp.

Carol ,
That is an awesome pic !! That race was great !!! :happy204: Ah the good ole days...man


And Tim...it's 1:04.8 :D..and that's with a SM strapped to the front of the Rabbit to move the air a little better....what a brick that was...
I am pretty sure I got some of that SM tattooed on my car as well, or one of them...there were 3 of them at one point. But i never got it as bad as you did...well form those guys at least.

I am wondering how far the lap times will drop with the new pavement going down at LRP ?:eclipsee_steering:


- John

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Originally Posted by Rabbit05

Carol ,


I am wondering how far the lap times will drop with the new pavement going down at LRP ?:eclipsee_steering:


- John

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Well, you guys were flat from the entrance to no name and to big bend right?

So, then the question is, how much time did you lose do to the bumps from big bend to no name?

I'd bet that C cars will drop about .5 sec....Bs and As a bit more, and S might be a full second....IF the track retains the banking and width....otherwise, all bets are off!

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Originally Posted by Ron Earp

...I've never really understood the argument that the C cars are all THAT much cheaper to race than A or S. I can see some savings on brakes as the weight is lower, but it isn't like 1/2 as much or anything of that nature.

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Ignoring the immediate savings of building/buying an ITC versus doing the same for an ITA/S car...

All of the consumables are used at a lower rate and are less expensive to replace. Tires, brakes, fuel, ball joints, seals, joints, etc last longer because the car weighs less. You can run an entire season on a set of tires. If you aren't a tire killer, and the end of season performance isn't that far from the start of the season. Try that on a faster & heavier car.

Towing costs are less. Which uses less fuel to tow? A 1900 lb car or a 2300 lb car? Not much savings if you are going 5 miles, but do a couple of long trips and it adds up.

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Originally Posted by jjjanos

Ignoring the immediate savings of building/buying an ITC versus doing the same for an ITA/S car...

All of the consumables are used at a lower rate and are less expensive to replace. Tires, brakes, fuel, ball joints, seals, joints, etc last longer because the car weighs less. You can run an entire season on a set of tires. If you aren't a tire killer, and the end of season performance isn't that far from the start of the season. Try that on a faster & heavier car.

Towing costs are less. Which uses less fuel to tow? A 1900 lb car or a 2300 lb car? Not much savings if you are going 5 miles, but do a couple of long trips and it adds up.

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First, Ron said "THAT much cheaper..."

And there are certainly C cars that have high cost consumables. An A car might (MIGHT) use more rotors per season, but the cost of those rotors might be $50, compared to $150 for a hard to get parts for C car. You can't make such generalizations...

As for tires, you state you get a SEASON on a set, and you aren't that much slower. Well, that to me sounds like the class isn't competitive, and you don't HAVE to go faster....which isn't really about the car being cheaper...it's about racing where the pickings are easier...

Point being that there are cars in C (or B )that can cost solid money to run, and there are cars in A (or B ) that are cheap to run, and there are overlaps. And of course, lets not forget the first rule, choose a class with little competition (an unpopular class) and you'll save the most money, because you can ignore lots of things that get pricey.

Summary of Jake's best point: If ITC fields were as deep as SM fields, it would cost more to run up front.

K

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Originally Posted by Rabbit05

Carol ,
That is an awesome pic !! That race was great !!! :happy204: Ah the good ole days...man


And Tim...it's 1:04.8 :D..and that's with a SM strapped to the front of the Rabbit to move the air a little better....what a brick that was...
I am pretty sure I got some of that SM tattooed on my car as well, or one of them...there were 3 of them at one point. But i never got it as bad as you did...well form those guys at least.

I am wondering how far the lap times will drop with the new pavement going down at LRP ?:eclipsee_steering:


- John

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Cut my teeth with the great and noteable ITC drivers like John VanDenburgh - VW - LRP Track record, Brian Muschnick - VW - NHMS Track Record single chicane, Fred White - Honda - always helped when you needed it and always had an extra part to share, Brian Megolia - VW, Jeff Leone - Ford, Chris Johnson - Ford, Rich Giles - VW. All these guys won races, many won championships, we raced tight and respectable races, never held up faster class cars, never wanted anything we wouldn't work hard for, always helped our fellow racer - The "best of the best" in "club racing", taught me most of what I know - Thanks fellas.

Fondest memory in ITC - pulling Jeff Leone's engine on a Saturday between sessions to change his Fiesta clutch, looked like a group of surgeons bent over an operating room table - Got Jeff to he false grid at the three minute warning - he was in contention with me for the NERRC/NARRC Championship.

John V- 104.8 WOW:happy204:- closest I ever got was 1:05.1 - SMOKIN!

Another thing that has resulted in smaller ITC fields is that it is no longer a dominant entry level class. Way back when I started racing most closed wheel newbies started in ITB or ITC. Then the spec classes came along. In the MARRS series SpecRX7 was king for a while and then SM became the class of choice for beginners. ITC and B were largely populated by old guys like me with plenty of parts cars in the back yard to keep our aging cars on the track.

Recently however I see a growing appeal of IT as an entry level class. When the new guys see the top SM cars costing $40K and even a SSM car at 10-15 $K cheap IT cars are looking like a good option. In the MARRS series I know of one new ITC build under way by a rookie and Tristan is starting out in a ITB VW. I think IT racers would do well to "market" the smaller IT classes to beginners who may otherwise end up going to the Dark Side.

Putting on funny looking green Yoda mask:
"Aggression and anger. Take you to the dark side it will. Hmmm. Continue your training you must."

Yoda mask off.

As someone who has played with ITB and ITC cars his whole racing career, it pains me to see the declining fields in B and C. But as Charlie has said then came SpecRX7 and Spec Miata, and most beginners went there to learn the craft.
I think that those cars too will see a decline, many of them are approaching the twenty year mark and eventually the next "new thing" will come along and even Mazda will get bored. Remember, "Some Miatas are more spec than others".

Hopefully, the club and its members will not give up on the low horsepower, small cars that made sports car racing what it is today.

cheers
Dave Parker
WDCR HP#97
2007 MARRS HP Champion

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Originally Posted by dave parker

Hopefully, the club and its members will not give up on the low horsepower, small cars that made sports car racing what it is today.

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I don't think the club has a choice. These cars are simply not made anymore. Someone brought up the Fit and Yaris, but those cars have 104 and 109 hp, I think they would eclipse ITC performance entirely.

Even if SM declines the cars will still be much newer than the average ITC car and more "available" to the average club racer. I'd bet that the number of logbooked SMs far outweighs the number of ITD, ITC, and maybe ITB cars ever constructed.

SM fan I am not, but the numbers are huge.

Ron