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During the start of a race there is often a malai going into the first or second turn with cars wrecked. The yellow flag comes out. Cars are stoped in various locations. Some on track. Some off track. Some are reentering the track. Since I started near the rear I am not involved in the incident. As I approach the area I pass cars that are stoped. Both on and off the track. I also pass cars that are reentering the track. Have I made an ilegal pass?
Chuck
Sounds like the Pro-IT T1, Lap 1 at Road Atlanta a few weeks ago...
I'd say that you're prefectly fine passing these cars as they were involved in the melee in some capacity. Although they may not have had metal to metal contact, they ended up off the race surface and have lost race pace. My understanding has always been that the "no passing under yellow" rule was directed more towards executing position improving passes on the race surface. Your scenario is a bit different and not all that uncommon on race starts.
Christian
It's obviously OK to pass cars involved in an incident covered by a yellow - any incident or INCIDENTS covered by the yellow. The harder question is, what if someone jumps on the binders to avoid becoming involved in an indicent covered by a yellow, right in the middle of all that mess?
K
Well, I'd think that the no passing when a yellow flag has been displayed can only be enforced for drivers who have actually been shown the yellow. Those would be drivers who were a good ways behind the initial incident (as they would have to be uptrack of the yellow, which would be uptrack of the incident).
Hopefully no drivers who actually get shown the yellow have to get on the binders really hard to avoid being involved.
Of course, there are exceptions to every rule, and the judgement on this one would have to resort to common sense.
K That would seem to be incident specific. If you are on his back bumper at speed a pass may be the best way to avoid a collision. I have seen cars go off track to avoid a collision and pass the a car which is breaking heavily. If on the other hand if he is slowing (not a panic stop) and you are reasonable distance behind I could see where it could be an ilegal pass.
Chuck
Usually, in a case of "pure pandolirium" such as the incident you describe, the interest of the corner workers is rather occupied with things other than a pass under yellow. However, I'm sure we've all done it or had it done in such a situation. If such things are written up in the corner worker's paper work, it's normally up to the chief steward to level punishment as he sees fit. With consideration to not furthering the carnage occuring in the corner, I wouldn't sweat whether I passed under the yellow or not. Usually, at worst, the Chairman, SOM will find you, have a talk with you, hear your opinion, and ask you to be careful as you got by with this one. Normally, you'll never hear a word about it.
Yellow does not mean stop.
If we're talking about two cars on track that are slowing at different rates for an incident ahead that's covered by a yellow, that's one thing. If we're talking about passing cars that are off track (either through involvement in the incident or avoidance of same) then that's something else.
In the first situation, you are responsible for your relationship to your competitor ahead (much like on the street), you're behind = you're responsible. Now if you pass somebody like that unavoidably and then you slow and clearly and plainly give back the position to that competitor, I'd say that you're fine. If you advance your position and keep it, I'd be waiting for a call to the tower.
If another competitor is off track at severly reduced speed and you pass them, you're probably OK since they're off the racing surface. I'd say it's your choice if you want to surrender the position back.
Also, if you're passed the incident, and there is no yellow at the next station, the first yellow no longer applies. Once you are clear of the cause of the yellow, you're back to green flag conditions.
Can you give it back? If I got passed under yellow, and the guy tried to give it back, I'd be quite reluctant to take it. Workers didn't see his pass but do see mine and now I'm guilty of PUY.Quote:
...Now if you pass somebody like that unavoidably and then you slow and clearly and plainly give back the position to that competitor, I'd say that you're fine. ...[/b]
At the '05 Runoffs, I was involved in such a situation.Quote:
Can you give it back? If I got passed under yellow, and the guy tried to give it back, I'd be quite reluctant to take it. Workers didn't see his pass but do see mine and now I'm guilty of PUY.
[/b]
There was a full-course yellow, but I had a head of steam and was concentrating on making a pass at that moment, and realized that we were under yellow just I was completing the pass. So, I waved the other driver by me.
The stewards did not see my pass, but they found the other guy guilty of passing under yellow. In impound, I overheard the stewards chastising him, so I walked over and explained that he was just taking his position back, and I was the one who was really guilty. They didn't have my car number on their list, but they were not amused, and chastised me for giving the position back.
Frankly, I think I did the right thing. In the end, neither one of us was penalized.
I believe there was a similar discussion about a Watkins Glen yellow / correction a while back here. This is always going to be a tough call about how to do it properly and not kill your race at the same time.
I'd be thrilled if someone decided to "take it back," if I commited a PUY sin - it would be a no-lose for me, and might do me a world of good. And I sure wouldn't get suckered into TAKING one back, for the reasons already explained.
Further (and this has happened plenty of times over the years), I've been known to make it pretty easy for someone to pass me under yellow, if it becomes clear that they are suffering from target fixation (on me) and are ignoring a flag. Falls under the heading of "sucks to be you."
:D
K
I worked as a corner worker for two years before grtting behind the wheel. I was told by my trainer that if a driver passed another under a local yellow flag before clearing the incident he was guilty of PUY. If the car he had passed passes him back before clearing the incident then he too was guilty of PUY, and we were to report both. There are some extenuating circumstances to consider. If the pass is COMPLETED before the passing car reaches a line from the center of the flag station to the far side of the track (at 90* to the edge of the track. in other words straight accross the track) it is a legal pass. A pass is complete when there is no overlap between the two cars. The no passing zone is from a line from the center of the flag station to the far side of the track to far end of the incident. If you are in the process of passing and back off before that line there is no foul. If you wish to be chivalrous and give the position back wait until you have cleared the incident, or if it was on a double yellow wait until the yellow drops. That way you won't cause your opponent to PUY.
As a corner worker I was tought that if two cars are approaching the line at the flag station while overlaped and the rear most car is increasing the overlap he or she is defacto passing. The person must either complete the pass or back off before crossing the line other wise he or she is guilty of PUY.
Chuck
A pass occurs when the nose of the overtaking car breaks the plane of the the overtaken car. If the overtaking car breaks that plane, it does not matter whether there is overlap - a pass has occured. This is the standard that would be used if the cars were being scored at the S/F line.Quote:
A pass is complete when there is no overlap between the two cars.
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As a corner worker I was tought that if two cars are approaching the line at the flag station while overlaped and the rear most car is increasing the overlap he or she is defacto passing. The person must either complete the pass or back off before crossing the line other wise he or she is guilty of PUY. [/b]
A following car may decrease any overlap without committing a pass under yellow - as long as the plane is not crossed. Pass - verb to move past; go by: to pass another car on the road. There is nothing in the GCR that says that I cannot gain an advantage (i.e. reduce the overlap) under a yellow flag.
Now, the overtaking car might be guilty of not displaying sufficient caution, but that's another issue and much more difficult to prove since it is a judgment call.
If all corner workers at RA were trained the same as I, You could have an enteresting conversation with the CS.
The GCR does not define when a pass is complete which leaves a lot to local interpretation.
Chuck
You may pass under yellow if you are waived by, as in when a car is having mechanical trouble and is off line waving people by. I had a situation where I was in the heat of battle in the midst of a pass when I saw the yellow. The car being passed slowed for the yellow and I went right by. I then slowed, went off line and waved the guy past me. After the race I was given a "talking to" but it was noted that I had waved the competator past me, thereby not gaining an advantage. They seemed satisfied with my handling of the situation.
Any lecture based on a PUY without me breaking that plane will be ignored and I wouldn't be shy about telling a steward -Quote:
If all corner workers at RA were trained the same as I, You could have an enteresting conversation with the CS.
The GCR does not define when a pass is complete which leaves a lot to local interpretation.[/b]
If I cross the S/F with overlap, but my nose behind his, it isn't a dead heat - I'm behind him and my finishing position reflects this. If my nose is in front, I've passed him and my finishing position reflects this. T&S wouldn't consider me in front therefore, I haven't passed.
I'll gladly file a protest and an appeal against any interpretation that either: (a) isn't in the supps; (B) failing that, isn't in the GCR; © failing that, doesn't use the standard english definition of the word. I've never seen supps define "a pass." It isn't defined in the GCR. That means the english language is what I'll use.
<blockquote>pass·ing (adjective) going by or past; elapsing
e·lapse (intr.v.) To slip by; pass
pass (adverb) so as to pass by or beyond
pass (preposition) up to and beyond
pass·ing (verb) To move on or ahead; proceed
a·head (adverb) in or to the front; in advance of; before
in front (idiom) in a forward place or position
in front of (idiom) ahead of</blockquote>
The GCR doesn't define a pass because the stewards don't want it to provide a definition. Absence of a definition leaves doubt and hence a measure of caution on the part of drivers. A clear definition would have everyone racing to the letter of the law.
The San Francisco Region supplemental regulations define it ... perhaps other regions should do the same.Quote:
The GCR doesn't define a pass because the stewards don't want it to provide a definition. Absence of a definition leaves doubt and hence a measure of caution on the part of drivers. A clear definition would have everyone racing to the letter of the law.
[/b]
You can agree or disagree with their definition, but at least it's defined:
"For the purpose of a pass on yellow, a pass is completed when the passing car has sufficient room to move safely back in front of the car being passed, before the flag/light."
As a corner worker, I'll say "report everything from the corners". The Stewards are the judges, not us out on the corners. Now, I certainly "annotate" my reports with things like "seemed unavoidable ... appeared to be a racing incident", or "appeared intentional, seemed ill-advised" if Race Control asks, or there's a written report, but in the final analysis, it's up to the Stewards, not the corners.Quote:
... I was told by my trainer that if a driver passed another under a local yellow flag before clearing the incident he was guilty of PUY. If the car he had passed passes him back before clearing the incident then he too was guilty of PUY, and we were to report both. ...
[/b]
I've been involved in three of these in the past couple of years where the guilty PUY party waved the other car back by while still under yellow, and each time 1.) the original PUY was not seen by the corner worker 2.) the re-pass was seen and was reported as a PUY 3.) The PUY and re-pass with wave-by were explained to the steward in impound. Each time both drivers were released without incident.Quote:
You may pass under yellow if you are waived by, as in when a car is having mechanical trouble and is off line waving people by. I had a situation where I was in the heat of battle in the midst of a pass when I saw the yellow. The car being passed slowed for the yellow and I went right by. I then slowed, went off line and waved the guy past me. After the race I was given a "talking to" but it was noted that I had waved the competator past me, thereby not gaining an advantage. They seemed satisfied with my handling of the situation.
[/b]
My experiences have been that when PUY, let it ride - re-passing is just screaming "Hey, I just got screwed and I'm taking my position back". Unfortunately, that pass is usually what gets noticed since the original PUY is frequently overlooked due to "activity" pertaining to the incident itself.
In one instance, I was called to the carpet to explain why I had re-passed - Uh, because I had been "wronged". The Steward's response was "So you performed a wrong as well?" "Uh, yessir - I'm an idiot".
In the second instance, I just let the car go, knowing (or at least hoping) that the flaggers took notice. Sure enough, I was called to the tower to confirm that I had been passed under yellow. "Yessir, I was passed but too no other action" "Thank you, you're free to go".
What was the consequence to the driver who did PUY?Quote:
My experiences have been that when PUY, let it ride - re-passing is just screaming "Hey, I just got screwed and I'm taking my position back". Unfortunately, that pass is usually what gets noticed since the original PUY is frequently overlooked due to "activity" pertaining to the incident itself.
In one instance, I was called to the carpet to explain why I had re-passed - Uh, because I had been "wronged". The Steward's response was "So you performed a wrong as well?" "Uh, yessir - I'm an idiot".
In the second instance, I just let the car go, knowing (or at least hoping) that the flaggers took notice. Sure enough, I was called to the tower to confirm that I had been passed under yellow. "Yessir, I was passed but too no other action" "Thank you, you're free to go".
[/b]
For the first incident, there doesn't appear to be any penalty for his PUY - he took me out of the race b/c in missing the double-yellow, he hit me in the wheel, breaking an axle.Quote:
What was the consequence to the driver who did PUY?[/b]
In the second incident, the car was penalized 1 finishing position for the PUY.