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In doing some reseach for a proposal, it seems as if the ITB track records are a little messed up. Current record on file is (from multiple sources) Shane Hawthorne with a 1:02.018. We all know that car is an ITA CRX - the one that was torn down and found non-compliant.
Who holds it, when was it broken and in what car? Isn't this one a Curren record in a Volvo?
I think Rick Polcock (sp?) has it, but don't know what it is. phil
The chief of registration for each if the regions that race at Lime Rock have the official information.
Contact Denise.
That is what I am saying Dick. The info from the top is wrong WRT ITB and T3 - and that is all I am familiar with.
The track record is in the 1:03s. I know Rick Pocock (I believe is how it is spelled) was the record holder a couple of years ago, and do not believe it has changed. I also spoke with Rick about his record; he was quite humble about it and said it was done fairly soon after LRP was repaved. Yeah, that long ago. LOL! Tire technology has changed a lot since then and it would be interesting to compare the benefits between newer track surface and the tires we're using now. If the regions do not have this information, you can contact Rick through Ian Prout at www.SCDA1.com . Rick often does their classroom instruction.
Proposal? Soooo....
I think Rick's best lap at LRP was: ITB 1:03.314 - Rick Pocock Alfa Romeo
But, it was a long time ago, and all other IT records have fallen, so I've been suspect of that number, but it's the only one I'm aware of.
For the record, it's Bettencourt in A, and Leverone in S, right? But who's got it in C? VanDenburgh?
This is how the official records look:
ITS 1:00.813 Leverone 2004
ITA 1:01.453 Bettencourt 2006
ITB 1:02.018 Hawthorn 2004
ITC 1:04.875 VanDenburgh 2004
Interestingly, they have this record superceeding the 'old' ITB record of 1:02.994 by Gordon Cooper in an BMW 325...well we know that to be wrong as well because Gordon drove in ITS - and there are no 325's in ITB IIRC. I do think it's Rick Pocock...just have to find the documentation. So the ITB record needs research.
Andy-
I think it is Rick from back around 2000 +/- a year or so. Only a handful at best have goten into the 3's at Lime Rock in ITB. Multiple people including ourselves have been around a 1:04 flat, but not into the 3's on a great day. As of the last couple years though it has been a fight to get into the 4's in an ITB car. ITC cars over the past few years seem to be just as fast by carying enough speed through the turns to cary them down the streight.
Raymond "When we have this little HP, its all about the turns" Blethen
And we now have it. Thanks!Quote:
This is how the official records look:
ITS 1:00.813 Leverone 2004
ITA 1:01.453 Bettencourt 2006
ITB 1:03.314 Pocock 1996
ITC 1:04.875 VanDenburgh 2004
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And we now have it. Thanks!
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Wow 1996... That is a lot older than I thought, and people say that classes don't get slower ;)
Raymond
Classes don't get slower...just drivers! :DQuote:
Wow 1996... That is a lot older than I thought, and people say that classes don't get slower ;)
Raymond [/b]
Seriously, that is a pretty fast time for ITB. Maybe it's time to build a B car...or rent Rick's Civic...or Alan's Coupe... :eclipsee_steering:
I would think that ITB and ITC records would be harder to come by that ITS and ITA in NER because you guys are always fighting 'faster but slower' traffic.
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Classes don't get slower...just drivers! :D
Seriously, that is a pretty fast time for ITB. Maybe it's time to build a B car...or rent Rick's Civic...or Alan's Coupe... :eclipsee_steering:
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LOL, Andy we know you are a star but I got $20 that says even with your driving you wont get that record with any current ITB cars in the Northeast ;)
Raymond
I believe that Pocock broke set the track record in the GTV not the Spider. If I recal the Spider was slower.
Rick just answered an e-mail from me. I hope he doesn't mind me posting this:
AWESOME! Thanks Rick.Quote:
...Our existing track record was set during the NARRC Runoffs on October 12, 1996, back when the track was much smoother and therefore much faster. Anyway, that was a great race among Scott Carlson in his 142E, Gary Engstrom in his 2002, and me in my Alfa Romeo Spider. I led most of the laps, but a failing alternator ultimately affected the ignition, and I fell to third place just before the checker fell. Scott took the victory and Gary finished in second place.[/b]
Andy-
It might be an interesting conversation to have with Scott to see why the volvo is a bit slower than it was in the old days... I think overall the ITB field has slowed progresively over the past 6 or so years at both NHIS and Lime Rock. Maybe the cars are all getting a bit tired (I know the drivers are not :blink: ), or maybe we are all making things more difficult. One thing is for sure, unlike ITA or ITS the cars getting classed are not faster then the current or past top dogs... IMO this makes the class a bit more stable and a better investment. I know our cars are maybe .5 seconds slower than they used to be for an individual lap, however they last the entire race so overall they are faster.
Raymond
ITC is just as stable and their record was broken in 2004.Quote:
Andy-
It might be an interesting conversation to have with Scott to see why the volvo is a bit slower than it was in the old days... I think overall the ITB field has slowed progresively over the past 6 or so years at both NHIS and Lime Rock. Maybe the cars are all getting a bit tired (I know the drivers are not :blink: ), or maybe we are all making things more difficult. One thing is for sure, unlike ITA or ITS the cars getting classed are not faster then the current or past top dogs... IMO this makes the class a bit more stable and a better investment. I know our cars are maybe .5 seconds slower than they used to be for an individual lap, however they last the entire race so overall they are faster.
Raymond [/b]
Alfa Spider was comeptitive in ITB? Interesting.... (and no, I do not want to build one!).... and cool.
Raymond. Raymond. (sigh); pay attention to the HONDAS, they're going to eat you for lunch if only reasonably prepared and driven. They are a major reason I haven't built another B car. And I think Ricks right; Limerock is slower, not the cars. (and A&S got MUCH faster) phil
Andy, Maybe down the road a ssm might fit into ITB, that would sure piss some people off. dave
Think about it ,limited prep 1600 (ssm) you would join that race. dave
C-mon Raymond, start crying now. dave
SSM record is 1:03.401 GorriaranQuote:
Andy, Maybe down the road a ssm might fit into ITB, that would sure piss some people off. dave
Think about it ,limited prep 1600 (ssm) you would join that race. dave
C-mon Raymond, start crying now. dave [/b]
yikes, I am not sure if it is sarcasm or real... I will assume that it is sarcasm cause I am not crying!!! lol...
And on for the rest...
Andy, I never mentioned ITC above cause you are right, that class also hasn't changed much over the years either.
As for ITB, the Honda's were in ITB when I started, I wasn't worried then and I am not now!!! lol Joking a little ;)... Yes I do think that a Honda will be quick, but I am not sure about low 1:03's at Lime Rock, unless it is a total 100% effort, phil how about getting P Keenes car for a race or two... maybe the IT Festival!!!
The track is slower!!! yay, my new excuse ;) but from 1996 I don't care how much slower the track is technology has changed a million times over. The cars and drivers that ran in 1996 were in their prime. Knowone will argue that Rick isn't a great driver, as with curran and carlson when those Volvo's were not so worn out. Knowone has been able to match the package that was presented 10yrs ago, it is an impressive accomplishment to say the least for all those drivers who were in the 3's.
As for my comment on stability... It isn't an insult and I don't expect it to stick around ITB either. I am trying to remember 1996, and a lot has changed (I was just graduating high School :blink: ), didn't MR2's run at the front of the ITA fields back in that era? And no it wasn't because of prep level, it was cause those were the cars to have. A lot has changed and while I think it is for the better of the entire field, I do think for someone like me who would like to run up front on a budget I made the right choice (by pure luck) running ITB rather than ITA or ITS. I also will admit those that are running ITA and ITS at the front have brought a completely new level to IT in general in the past few years... sorta reminds me of the level that people such as Rick brought to ITB back in 1996 - An all out professional level of competition.
Raymond "still not sure when I cryed, or what we are debating" Blethen
So is it reasonable to assume that you are telling us that the level of prep and professionalism for ITB in NER was at it's peak in the mid-late 90's? If that is the case, what would you then attribute the lack of a broken record? The track? I think you answered that question already. I wonder what Eric Curren could do in Paul's new Volvo with a seasons worth of testing and a day like we had at the 2006 NARRC Runoffs. Don't you? I am confident that if someone infused $10K into your program you would go faster.Quote:
I also will admit those that are running ITA and ITS at the front have brought a completely new level to IT in general in the past few years... sorta reminds me of the level that people such as Rick brought to ITB back in 1996 - An all out professional level of competition.
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ITB is a great class in NER for sure, and if I could find a competitive RWD chassis, I would be in that class as well. Fire Arrow anyone? :)
After thinking over the night I have come to the conclusion that..
1) I think that the track is slower
2) While technology is A LOT better these days, you can only make a 1970's and early 80's era car (ex: volvo) go so fast ;)
3) Newer cars that benefit more from technology are or have not been classed till very recently.
4) People are not spending the $$$ to run ITB... Some have, but maybe don't have the complete package, including driving, testing, and time to invest.
#4 is what makes the class attractive IMO, as I think anyone who wants to enter can reasonably expect to stand a chance at developing something that will run up front. I think you will see some fast Hondas, the new A3's and/or maybe a Mini or two... Time will tell!!! Till then everyone up front brings together their resources in completely different ways, making the entire season very interesting. This year it will be very interesting to see how the points work out.
Raymond
With the previous car classifications, it’s easy to see why the ITA & ITS records are much more recent. After speaking with Rick and others who are Lime Rock Gurus, I have become convinced that the track is slower now even with the better tire technology. Or maybe I just convinced myself to believe that. ITC – for one thing, there really are not too many cars that run in that class. What was the previous record? Is it just that the old record wasn’t what it should have been? There are other reasons I can also think may attribute to this as well.
Now that’s a crock of s@#$. There are several cars that can do very well in ITB. Volvos, Alphas, the Golf III, the Rabbit that just got a weight break, Audi, and more. IMO, the real cars to have right now in ITB are the Audis and Golf III. The biggest issue I see with the Audis seems to be finding parts. The Audi might not be the car to have at LRP, but get it to a track where power is more important… I will say that the Hondas can also run at the front, but certainly won’t dominate at least due to the car itself. LOLQuote:
pay attention to the HONDAS, they're going to eat you for lunch if only reasonably prepared and driven.[/b]
New motor, final drive, custom header, air intake, ISAAC head & neck restraint (so I don’t die when I start pushing even harder), working on car set-up & will even buy a tire pyrometer, and a few other goodies. Hmmm, maybe you should be afraid. :lol: In reality, the way things seem to go I won’t be any faster but at least I’m trying.
I also don’t buy that Carlson’s car was at it’s peak 10 years ago. Based on my conversations with him, he has continued his development program and found new ways to improve upon his car since then. Have you seen Paul’s Volvo? That thing looks like it did when it came off the showroom floor. It’ll be faster this year. I’m also a little nervous of Jim now that he’s back. There’s a long list.
Low 1:03s in an ITB car is crazy fast. I can’t even imagine it, but who knows if someone will be able to break it in the next few years. I just want the ITB Palmer track record!!!
Andy, I also wonder what Curren could do in YOUR Miata at LRP given a test day or two.
:026: Save ITB, allow the Miatas :D
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:026: Save ITB, allow the Miatas :D
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I have been looking for a reason to get a ummm Miata, maybe that will be the solution!!! lol
Raymond
Raymond, you won't know what do do with all of your new spare time........ dave
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Dave,
The old ITC record was 1:05:3. A friend of mine was running very close to this time in his Rabbit . And when we broke this record , we had a new set of Hoosiers on. I think it was the 04's ,which correct me if I am wrong, alot of track records fell when these tires first came out. Plus we went to a taller/wider tire, and this helped out by knocking down the RPM's a little bit.
And I was behind 2 Miata's getting a very good tow... and I mean i was looking thru their window for the Turn 1 Brake point :eclipsee_steering:
John VanDenburgh
Miatas are not the enemy, trust me.....dave
Save this post....
I truelly beleive the ITB Track Record will get broken this year.
There are to many top contendenders that have the potential to do it. I beleive several cars will get to the 3's this year. The track may be slower but technology is so much better with shocks and struts, tires, and everything else that goes into it. Back in 96 we didn't have transponders that would make up the tenths and thousands we have today in accuracy. If I can get within a few tenths of the track record in my Audi than I am sure some of the other top dogs will get there! It's definetly within reach.
Stephen # 50 ITB Audi Coupe
If it doesn't I will be forced to come back and race in ITB in 2008 to do it myself :unsure: and i will publicly say sorry I was wrong! (This is assuming we don't get all Rain races!)