Are motor mounts free? I don't have my GCR handy. BMW uses a fluid filled motor mount which isn't particularly strong in a hit....suffice it to say one of mine is not healthy :D . I was wondering what my options were.
Thanks
R
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Are motor mounts free? I don't have my GCR handy. BMW uses a fluid filled motor mount which isn't particularly strong in a hit....suffice it to say one of mine is not healthy :D . I was wondering what my options were.
Thanks
R
Mounts are not free. Must be stock.
Thanks Jeff....are you sure your not just saying that? ;)
R
I just was wondering the same thing since I'm about to put the motor backin the car. Motor mounts must be stock but trans mounts are free - my understanding from others and my review of the GCR. But if I'm wrong please correct me before it's to late....
Cheers,
Ben
The way I read the rules I would have to agree with Jeff also, we are stuck with stock engine/trans mounts.
But I'm curious how many other vehicles have issues with "relatively "fragile" mounts? I know I have to treat them as a consumable, even with the allowed additional stay rod. It seems odd that we can add a stay rod and we can replace suspension bushing but the motor mounts are off limits. So does anyone else have any thoughts one way or the other?
***So does anyone else have any thoughts one way or the other?***
You could call the flexible motor/trans material bushings. Then you could use Spherical bearings as your material. (Yes I understand bushings are tubular.)
We ALL have options when we don't like the IT rules. :D Why should the IT rules be changed closer & closer to Production rules? Why don't people who need more free rules move to a class with more free rules ? :D
The fun part IMHJ of the original glossary definition of Bushing is that the word had NOTHING to do with suspension bushings. The rule had to do with installing a sleeve or tubular insert as a linear bearing or to salvage a worn part.
GCR Glossary
Bushing/Bush - A sleeve or tubular insert , whose PURPOSE is to reduce the dimension(s) of an existing hole.
The friken rubber suspension things are to reduce noise & make up for irregularites of lack of perfection. :D Not to reduce the dimensions of an existing hole.
Have Fun ;)
David
Ben and I talked about engine/tranny mounts. Engine obviously stock - tranny I say stock too. Can't find any allowance in the GCR for alternate material.
If vibration is an issue, you can always go to a stayrod.
I'll have to disagree with you there. Suspension bushings do indeed reduce the diameter of an existing hole. At the 25hour in 2005, I had a rear trailing arm front bushing disintegrate during my stint due to the exhaust getting too close (from someone's prior off road excrusion).Quote:
The friken rubber suspension things are to reduce noise & make up for irregularites of lack of perfection. :D Not to reduce the dimensions of an existing hole.[/b]
Can you say 1" of dynamic toe adjustment? Turning was not a problem, going straight was! The high speed kink at on the back part of the course was especially hairy. When it came time to pit, I was very much looking for something to reduce the diameter of the hole. :P
only one? if you hit something hard enough to break one, i bet the other is toast too. and the tranny mounts would now be suspect. both my stock bmw engine mounts and both of my uuc tranny mounts sheared off in my front end "incident" on labor day. entire drive train moved forward several inches since is wasn't connected to anything anymore.. :( system basically worked as designed to absorb the energy of the impact.Quote:
Are motor mounts free? I don't have my GCR handy. BMW uses a fluid filled motor mount which isn't particularly strong in a hit....suffice it to say one of mine is not healthy :D . I was wondering what my options were.
Thanks
R
[/b]
marshall
***The friken rubber suspension things are to reduce noise & make up for irregularites of lack of perfection. Not to reduce the dimensions of an existing hole.***
***I'll have to disagree with you there.***
Jerremy, do ya think that the OEM intent of the rubber suspension thing was to reduce the existing hole? :D
Second question:
Do ya think the ORIGINAL Glossary definition of the word Bushing/Bush had any reference to the rubber suspension things that reduce noise & make up for irregularites of lack of perfection? :D
Have Fun ;)
David
ps: Sometimes it's good to stay some what grounded when reading the rules/glossary.
David, I don't think we'd have SBs today if that had been the operative definition. But there is a separate one for "Suspension Bushing" and it uses the word "bearing" so, of course, that opened the door to things that were never envisioned by anyone as being a bushing. :bash_1_:
Bill, thanks for grounding me. :023:
Y'all think I should stay stock on the trans mounts? Anybody running anything but stock? The ones I want to put in are urethane.
Ya know, those engine mounts are "suspending" the engine and transmission...hmmm, looking through the GCR for the legal-to-the-letter definition of "suspension"...strange...none found...
It's amazing how one silly little "clarification" of a rule can be so wide-reaching...what a surprise...
I like the way you think Greg. Here I've been replacing stock rubber mounts with more stock rubber mounts like some kind of sucker when all I had to do was squint really hard while reading the rulebook. :D
I'm still just curious how many people have to treat motor mounts as common maintainence items, or maybe I should ask how many people AREN'T using stock mounts?
We have stock bushings in the Audi's and yes, they can be a problem and need to be replaced every years or so... more frequently if we are involved in an "incident."
Raymond
Quote:
...., or maybe I should ask how many people AREN'T using stock mounts? [/b]
Uhh...yea...
My informal eavesdropping in post race inpound yeilded this quote from the owner of a blue honda this summer at Lime Rock..., " Those? aluminum..... Illegal? Sure! (laughing), but what do I care? I make 'em for guys....need a set?"
Uhhh yea....your question might be the one to ask....
So what happens if I do the trans mounts - Do I become a cheater? (I bought these but they aren't installed yet.)
The aluminum motor mounts for this car is supposed to be a top handling enhancement - do I become a double weezle if I use those?
Not looking to put myself into a world of pain by doing this stuff.
I guess the big question is what are guys doing in the NE? Stock everything? If so, then I will to. But if folks are running solid mounts, so will I.
Reaching out to the experienced ITA folks and rules folks for direction. I do not want to be pulling these out after buying and installing.
Thanks
I'm using stock motor/transmission mounts, but I would sure like to go to polys.Quote:
I'm still just curious how many people have to treat motor mounts as common maintainence items, or maybe I should ask how many people AREN'T using stock mounts?
[/b]
Another point is that UUC also makes what they call The Enforcer. Basically an aluminium sleave that goes over a stock transmission mount that stiffens it up. I know IIDSYCYC, but you're still using the stock mount and the moving transmission does cause shift linkage bind which this helps as it stiffens up the mount.Quote:
only one? if you hit something hard enough to break one, i bet the other is toast too. and the tranny mounts would now be suspect. both my stock bmw engine mounts and both of my uuc tranny mounts sheared off in my front end "incident" on labor day. entire drive train moved forward several inches since is wasn't connected to anything anymore.. :( system basically worked as designed to absorb the energy of the impact.
marshall
[/b]
James
"And they're off!"
Kirk (who invites anyone to come wiggle his engine whenver they want)
Yup.Quote:
So what happens if I do the trans mounts - Do I become a cheater?[/b]
Dunno about "guys", but I'm certainly running stock mounts. That's the rule. Anyone doing anything else is cheating.Quote:
...what are guys doing in the NE? Stock everything?[/b]
:DQuote:
"And they're off!"
Kirk (who invites anyone to come wiggle his engine whenver they want)
[/b]
But what's to stop my buddie from drilling an opening in his mount and replacing all the fluid with something a little firmer? Like maybe a good long cure epoxy. Then how would the legality of the mount be confirmed? It still has the stock part number, and except for a small rubber plug looks exactly like a stock one. Wasn't this the reason that the ecu was opened up, unenforceability?
James
I'm going to sound like your Mother, LOL.Quote:
So what happens if I do the trans mounts - Do I become a cheater? (I bought these but they aren't installed yet.)
The aluminum motor mounts for this car is supposed to be a top handling enhancement - do I become a double weezle if I use those?
Not looking to put myself into a world of pain by doing this stuff.
I guess the big question is what are guys doing in the NE? Stock everything? If so, then I will to. But if folks are running solid mounts, so will I.
Reaching out to the experienced ITA folks and rules folks for direction. I do not want to be pulling these out after buying and installing.
Thanks [/b]
You know the right answer, don't you?
Do you think Greg Amy runs illegal mounts? Or Andy? Or Jeff? Or Jeremy? (And natioanlly, Ruck? Mosers?)
On the flipside, how about the 24 car?
Does that help?
;)
Is that the way the part came from the factory?Quote:
:D
But what's to stop my buddie from drilling an opening in his mount and replacing all the fluid with something a little firmer? Like maybe a good long cure epoxy. Then how would the legality of the mount be confirmed? It still has the stock part number, and except for a small rubber plug looks exactly like a stock one. Wasn't this the reason that the ecu was opened up, unenforceability?
James
[/b]
No.
Not legal, and enforcibilty has ZERO to do with that.
If we're playing the "Odds of getting caught game", there is no hope. Time for a "claimer class".
Just because one guy can "cheat better" doesn't make it right, nor acceptable.
Quote:
So what happens if I do the trans mounts - Do I become a cheater? (I bought these but they aren't installed yet.)
Reaching out to the experienced ITA folks and rules folks for direction. I do not want to be pulling these out after buying and installing.
Thanks
[/b]
Yup you would be cheating... I would suggest a first offence penalty of: Fix by next race, and probation for the rest of the year on that spacific item, car must be checked by tech at EVERY event before the race.
I am sure you will find that all the seriose people are running stock parts...
Raymond
IMHO changing to anything but stock motor or transmission mounts it cheating. We run stock although they are not a big deal on our cars. We have broken one tranny mount and one motor mount in five years on our two cars. Both because unusual circumstances.
But I would have no objection if this is really a severe problem endorsing a rule change to allow the change.
I run stock. One of my previous cars came with illegal mounts.....I swapped them out........BECAUSE THEY ARE ILLEGAL!!
I think this is a silly rule. One story I like to tell is when I was building the NX2000 I installed Energy Suspension poly engine mounts inserts in my car. Seemed so logical, given the philosophy and the plate of other mods allowed, that something like this was allowed (find another mod that is so common on street cars; hell, guys buy these things before they even accept delivery of their new/used car!)Quote:
One of my previous cars came with illegal mounts...[/b]
I was at the ARRC in 2003 when we had to swap out the engine. As it was coming out Tim Rogers pointed out to me that the mounts were illegal. I laughed, then I was stunned when he didn't laugh, too. Went and read through the rulebook again and damned if he wasn't right...so, I give people the benefit of the doubt, at least initially.
It's a silly rule. You're allowing welded-in spherical bushings on suspension control arms, fabricated engine stay rods, and Motec engine management systems but not bolt-in poly engine mounts?
Silly rule. But, it's still the law.
Quote:
So what happens if I do the trans mounts - Do I become a cheater? (I bought these but they aren't installed yet.)
[/b]
Only if your running in ITR. ;)
"It's a silly rule. You're allowing welded-in spherical bushings on suspension control arms, fabricated engine stay rods, and Motec engine management systems but not bolt-in poly engine mounts?"
Four wrongs don't make a right!
This illustrates the disastrous unintended consequences of BS rule interpretations that are adopted by Topeka - they then become examples of the types of mods that should logically be allowed. :018:
Ben, had you said that the alum. mounts were simply more durable/safer, they would still be illegal but I don't know if anyone would much care. But they are a huge handling improvement?!? Shame on you!
Not what I meant to imply, directly. I don't mean to say that since "this" is allowed then "that" should be allowed. What I mean is that by comparing the currently-allowed mods to the philosophy of the class, it seems like there are many other disallowed mods that should have been considered long before these... - GAQuote:
...they then become examples of the types of mods that should logically be allowed. :018: [/b]
Not naming names but a notable NE ITA guy told me trans mounts were OK but not motor mounts. The original interpretation then changed on this thread - which is fine.
This is one reason why this forum exists - to double check before you do anything. Certainly seems to have sparked some reaction though.
(And yes Jake - you rightfully did sound motherish but hey, just checking Ma!) ;)
So where my engine bolts to the transaxle, and the transaxle mounts onto the subframe, then it's OK to replace all of the bushings involved in connections where the engine is NOT involved...?Quote:
Not naming names but a notable NE ITA guy told me trans mounts were OK but not motor mounts. ...[/b]
Whee!! :026:
Kirk (who is liking the New Order more and more)
EDIT - or where the engine bolts to other parts, then THOSE parts are supported by bushings? EXCELLENT!
I'm thinking he's notably....wrong.Quote:
Not naming names but a notable NE ITA guy told me trans mounts were OK but not motor mounts.
(And yes Jake - you rightfully did sound motherish but hey, just checking Ma!) ;)
[/b]
Based on this discussion and the feedback - and my final review of the GCR last night - agreed! :023:
It's funny to read this thread. I posted it, a trusted friend replied, I gave him a smart reply (which I'm good for), and then....then....ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE!!! Wheeee!
Thanks Jeff -I had the STOCK parts orderd after my original reply. I hadn't revisited this thread till now. The more I read the interpretations some have of the IT rulebook the better I understand the U.S. Tax Code!!
R
Which blue Honda?
Not a CRX, but ask me in person if you want to order a couple, LOL. (ITA) I can get your order to him. ;)
I agree that motor mounts are illegal. However, there is also very limited ways to enforce the rules. I know Hondas so here is my example.
Stock OEM Honda mounts, have no markings at all on them. They are black in color. Mugen makes a motor mount that at a 300% markup is significantly stronger and better. Can you tell they are stock? Well no, there are no markings on either piece. They both are black and look the exact same. The only way to tell they are not stock is to test the hardness of the rubber.
Am I cheating? No, I am too damn cheap to spend $405 on motor mounts. Plus its not moral, but this rule can be very hard to enforce.
Edit: While ECU's etc are being discussed is there room to clarify/change this rule? Does that even make sense to do?
Jeremy, this rule is easily enforced. A simple durometer test between the two would surface the illegalities. Now KNOWING that someone has these is the difficult part.
If I was trying to take down a known illegal car, this would be one of the items I would name on my protest.
I'm with you! But a cheap, simple piece of aluminum rod makes a nice solid engine stayrod, which would suffice... :DQuote:
I
Am I cheating? No, I am too damn cheap to spend $405 on motor mounts. [/b]