How come the 5th gen Celica GT-S isn't in ITS? Has this car never been classed??
Marc
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How come the 5th gen Celica GT-S isn't in ITS? Has this car never been classed??
Marc
It is in the ITR proposal. I think it should be in S with the GSR since that was the benchmark Toyota was going after. <shurg>
The initial classing in ITR is slated at a weight of 2380 lbs I believe. If the weights stay as the list currently sits, I think the GT-S will be a good enduro car for ITR.
At a curb weight of 2500lbs and a stock 180hp, you are looking at either 2380 in ITR or 2750 in ITS...I think it is clearly an ITR car.
Now the GSR has a curb weight of 2530lbs and 170hp. 2590 in ITS (if new weights go through) or 2240 in ITR...
You feelin' the rationale? Fortunately we don't really consider who the manufacturers target as their competition...(shrug back at-cha)
The weight reduction for the GSR will be welcomed!! Fingers crossed!
Not to hijack - but again to reiterate:
There is a proposal before the CRB to re-evaluate the 'adders' for FWD cars in ITS. When ITR adders and weights were being developed, the standard consideration for FWD just wasn't cutting it at those weights and HP levels.
When you look at ITS and what you see in terms of trends for top cars, there are no FWD cars in the mix. The same thought process was applied to the FWD cars in ITS and new weights spit out. Some drastic, some minimal, some had no change. It's a revision to the process across the category, not consideration for any one marque or model.
AB
...To emphasize, it's a categorical mod to the process, based on the non linear response of the FWD and HP interaction. We think it's a good thing, but it is by NO means a car by car pencil sharpening exercise. Hopefully, the theoretical race between a well prepped and well driven sample of every model will be closer.Quote:
It's a revision to the process across the category, not consideration for any one marque or model.
AB
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Not to split hairs - but be wary of the HP rating on the Celica. Not only has Toyota had to revise the ratings of that engine this year, but Toyota's VTec thingy isn't nearly as good as Honda's and has a tighter power band up high. In the Integra you can stay on the cams when accelerating through the gears - while the Celica goes in and out with only about 1800rpm to work with on the hot cam lobes.
Good points Jake, but....
I have this motor in my Exige. The cam cross over point is ECU controlled and can be changed. Toyota apparently put it way up high for gas mileage purposes and to give the owner the feeling of a "kick" at the cam crossover point.
I suspect this motor will gain a LOT from ECU work, intake and header -- maybe as much as 10-15 hp. Plus, the torque and hp curves can easily be moved down the RPM band.
I donno man. For a motor to make 100HP/L stock, the ECU program can't be that bad. I would be hard pressed to belive there is 15 HP in just I/H/ECU.Quote:
I suspect this motor will gain a LOT from ECU work, intake and header -- maybe as much as 10-15 hp. Plus, the torque and hp curves can easily be moved down the RPM band.
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Supposed to be a stock car. GSRs make 138-142 stock on a dyno jet. TQ is close.
http://www.dragtimes.com/2000-Toyota-Celic...raphs-8913.html
My feeling is the GTS should be 75-100# max over the GSR weight. But I don't make the rules .....
Not really. :PQuote:
You feelin' the rationale? Fortunately we don't really consider who the manufacturers target as their competition...(shrug back at-cha)
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Toyota targeted the GSR and uped the specs a bit so it looks better on paper. The real world performance of the 2 cars in stock from was very close.
* Celica has 10 more HP
* Celica has a 6 speed (but the ratios are junk, 5th is tall, 6th is super tall)
* TQ is about the same
* brakes are about the same
* Celica has struts, GSR is a-arm
* Aero looks to be about the same
There isn't 160# worth of difference there. <shurg again>
If you want to micro-manage every spec the cars have, Prod is your class!
Seriously, the process isn't perfect but there is no way we are gonna slice each car up in a million pieces.
Exactly which Celica are we talking about, I run a fourth gen GTS and from everything I'm hearing here, you guys must be refering to the seventh gen model. The engine in the fifth gen Celica was a 2.2 liter with nearly not potential as a race engine, in fact my 2 liter 3SGE makes better power and lends itself to mods much better. I have seen the results from someone trying to race the 7th gen GTS's even in showroom stock, and they just weren't competative, and way to fragile. I have raced Honda's, Nissan's, and now a Toyota and to be quite frank, the Toyota's require much more tweeking to be competative. Oh and by the way, most Toyota's are heavy cars, which need a break on weight, just to be in the same leauge. :dead_horse:
nothing against Toyota, I love the marque, but the GT-S is not going to compete with the GSR...too heavy and fragile...even if it was the same weight...
Yeah just like I said, the 7th gens looked great on paper, but Toyota would have been better served by continueing to import the 3SGE engines in all the newer body style Celicas. This engine is still availible in Japan and produces much more power than US spec 1.8 liter engines, but US emissions requirements have kept it out of this country since the '89 model year. I have a JDM 1st gen 3SGE at my shop, and combined with it's JDM ECU produces 160 hp, verses the US 135 hp rating.Quote:
nothing against Toyota, I love the marque, but the GT-S is not going to compete with the GSR...too heavy and fragile...even if it was the same weight...
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We are talking about the 180hp car...
between the suspension weight and "real world" hp I won't worry about one if it did show up in ITS...It would take a gazillion $ to develop it to the point of a bolt on GSR...I love Toyota but if I were to spend money to race one I would put it into a Supra in ITR...I know of 2 that people bolted everything to them here (street cars) and they couldn't pull GSR numbers. That isn't to say it can't be done but im sure it wouldn't.
I figured you were, but the 5th gen reference through me off, since theQuote:
We are talking about the 180hp car...
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actual car in question is classified as a 7th gen chassis. Also where we
get the 180 hp model, our Japanese freinds get 200+ and a lot more
options in performance mods straight from Toyota. :cavallo:
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Seriously, the process isn't perfect but there is no way we are gonna slice each car up in a million pieces.
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Come on now, if you guys take this classing of cars seriously, I would think you guys would want to class them as fairly as possible. This would mean you would want to take a critical look at the car as a whole. With the interweb, this is not a very hard job today.
Otherwise, the process just looks like a random number generator to people like me looking in from the outside. :P
The fifth generation was in ITS. It is now in ITA as is the fourth generation. The seventh generation which is what you are all talking about is in Showroom Stock and will be moving in to IT soon. I raced a Fifth Generation in ITS this year and got killed the RX-7 and BMW are so much faaster than me. the good news is the Toy doesn'y break!! Anybody know any tricks to make the Toy faster and where I can get those trick parts??
But the big distinction is that just because we KNOW the differences, doesn't mean we can accuratly apply weight 'penalities' to every little advantage and disadvantage. As soon as you drill down any more than we do now, its all even more of a guess than what we do now. It's an estimation that is seeminly working out well but to dice it up even further, it would be a mistake.Quote:
Come on now, if you guys take this classing of cars seriously, I would think you guys would want to class them as fairly as possible. This would mean you would want to take a critical look at the car as a whole. With the interweb, this is not a very hard job today.
Otherwise, the process just looks like a random number generator to people like me looking in from the outside. :P
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As far as performance parts go, your pretty limited, but check with Rick at Toyhead Auto he's helped me a bunch. His site is http://www.toyheadauto.com, and he covers all gen Celicas.Quote:
The fifth generation was in ITS. It is now in ITA as is the fourth generation. The seventh generation which is what you are all talking about is in Showroom Stock and will be moving in to IT soon. I raced a Fifth Generation in ITS this year and got killed the RX-7 and BMW are so much faaster than me. the good news is the Toy doesn'y break!! Anybody know any tricks to make the Toy faster and where I can get those trick parts??
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racerb