Diesel in ITB / ITC?

All...

I'm just wondering if anyone knows how the SCCA would class a diesel rabbit (1.6NA) under the IT regulations.
I looked last night and can't seem to find anything in the class listings.

I know it seems like a crazy idea, but I've been working on a few of the VW diesels lately and I have a new respect for them. After putting a turbo diesel in my rabbit truck, I wanted to check out the classings for a rabbit TD (made by the factory in 83/84), but I think I know the answer to that one... Turbo probably bumps it out into ITE or something.

An older friend of mine seems to remember some team running a diesel rabbit at the Nelson's Ledge's enduro races way back when... not sure what class that was though.

Obviously the rabbit diesel would be somewhat down on power, but even the NA rabbits can be "turned up" a bit by playing with the injection pump... that is, if those adjustments are legal under the rules. Suspension is not an issue since that portion is just like the gasser GTI's... the transmission ratios might be a problem though.

No diesel...

17.1.4. IMPROVED TOURING CATEGORY
D.1.d.2. Those vehicles which have emission control devices
removed and which are not registered and licensed
for street operation may use any gasoline meeting the
requirements of GCR Section 17.4., Fuel.

17.4.1. Permitted Fuel
Permitted fuel is herein defined as gasoline. Gasoline is a mixture of
refined hydrocarbons. Gasoline is an electrical insulator and its relative
effectiveness as an insulator is represented by its dielectric constant (D.C.).
The average D.C. of gasoline, as measured by an SCCA Fuel Check Meter
(High Desert Engineering HDE-1), is defined as “0.0”. Gasoline may be
tested and certified at SCCA events by the determination of the dielectric
constant using the SCCA Fuel Check meter and through the application of
various chemical analyses (e.g., Reagent “A” and Reagent “D” tests).

That 'splains it in print. I wondered how a tech inspector could do a fuel inspection on diesel. Guess he doesn't have to.

...and it's too bad, really. I love those things, had a lot of fun building my own. I'd have a blast building, prepping, and campaigning a TDi, devising a strategy to best suit its strongpoints...

http://www.gatm.com/cars/17dt4sale.html

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>>That 'splains it in print. I wondered how a tech inspector could do a fuel inspection on diesel. Guess he doesn't have to.[/b]

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That's true... I didn't think about that part. I've been making my own biodiesel for a while now and I could have put that into the car as well. I'd imagine they'd scratch their heads about fuel made from waste veggie oil. I run it at 100% in the daily driver...runs great, smells like egg rolls!

That's a shame they won't allow diesels. I think a properly setup rabbit TD would be a lot of fun out there with the other rabbits. Tons of torque plus the nimble handling of the Mk1's...

Wouldn't it be nice if we were part of a racing organization that was a leader in alternative fuels. It looks like right now we are not even following the push. I know there are alot of other things people want to get done in the SCCA, but why not make a push for alternative fuels? Ethanol, Methanol, and Biodiesel are going to be very important in the next few decades.

Doesn't really matter if its competitive.
I'd like to see those cars classed just so if people wanted to run one they could.

A BioDiesel ITC Rabbit would be great to see out there IMO. While everyone else is paying $3 to $6 a gallon for 93 to 100 octane, this guy has a cannister of filtered egg roll oil from the local takeout place.
Thats friggin awesome.

I think as long as you run Transesterfied Fuel(bio-diesel), thats oil sans glycyrin, it would'nt be to slick if they spilled it, I'd hate to see SVO cars spilling frenchfrypudles allover the course. But heck with that rule even Diesel fuel is an alternative fuel!

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I think as long as you run Transesterfied...[/b]

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I have a mental image of trying to 'heel & toe' in 4" stiletto heels and a French maid's costume...

Yes the transesterfication can be very intimidating sometimes, but I think if you give it a chance you might sorta like it.

As far as alternative fuels go, electric is still a bit heavy and boring (I crewed for an electric Rabbit back in the early 90's), and alcohol has safety considerations (invisible fire, etc.). Hydrogen fuel cells are quite interesting (maybe I'm biased since I used to write patents on this), but may also have safety issues. There are VWs sold in South America (e.g., Brazil) that automatically adjust for any mixture of gasoline and ethanol. In Canada, the VWs are available from the dealerships with the bio-diesel option. We seem to get the chaff lately.

I don't see any such problems with diesel as compared with gasoline, although the naturally aspirated outputs are less than the gas versions. I would also like to see diesels allowed in IT, and allowances made in the fuel specs for both regular diesel and bio-diesel. Word is that many of today's diesels won't be sold here after 2007, though, due mainly to emissions issues and/or technology investment choices.

Other countries are making huge pushes to incorperate the infrastructures for alternative fuels, and promote their use, where as America has made it blindingly obvious that it doesn't want any part of it, just by its lack of any infrastructure.

I'm turned off by Hybrids and electrics too, electric still comes from burning Hydrocarbons, mostly coal. There again our infrastructure is weak on any clean ways of making electricity, namely Nuclear. I'm an internal combustion guy though, no matter how hard I squeeze the trees, I can't help loving the fourstroke engine!

Hopefully we will still have diesels in the future, one way to clean up the emissions is to burn cleaner fuels, If they were readily available we wouldn't have to hang our hats on Urea.

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>>A BioDiesel ITC Rabbit would be great to see out there IMO. [/b]

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I completely agree...

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While everyone else is paying $3 to $6 a gallon for 93 to 100 octane, this guy has a cannister of filtered egg roll oil from the local takeout place.[/b]

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Biodiesel is a bit different that straight waste vegetable oil (WVO)...the two are often confused. While it is possible for practically any diesel to run filtered WVO, you have to convert the vehicle to use a system that heats the oil first, then filters it pretty heavily...and make provisions for startup / shutdown on normal petro diesel. Long story, but you have to buy / make a kit.

Biodiesel is actually "converted" vegetable oil that's been changed into methyl esters by running a simple chemical reaction on it. Essentially, you catalyze the oil and make the heavy, sticky stuff (glycerin) drop out so you're left with a fuel that is interchangeable with normal diesel fuel as far as BTU, viscosity, etc. I learned how to make the "processor" and do the process from different websites... it's pretty easy. Just look up "Appleseed" reactors.

Bio and petro mix perfectly and you can run any blend you want... no conversion needed to the engine. The one major difference is that bio gels at a higher temp than normal diesel (around 20 degrees as opposed to -10 for petro). This means you can't run 100% in the cooler months.

Like I said, I run it at 100% in my rabbit truck and it's been great. Tremendous fuel cost savings, the truck runs better (bio has better lubrication qualities) and a lot better for the environment (less smoke, emissions, etc.)

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I think as long as you run Transesterfied Fuel(bio-diesel), thats oil sans glycyrin, it would'nt be to slick if they spilled it, I'd hate to see SVO cars spilling frenchfrypudles allover the course.[/b]

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Well...biodiesel is still pretty slick. Not so much as WVO, but slippery all the same. The advantage to bio is that it is not considered a hazardous / flammable liquid by the DOT. The flash point is too high... in addition, it's biodegradable. When I spill it, I use some dish soap or kitty litter and then hose it off.

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In Canada, the VWs are available from the dealerships with the bio-diesel option. We seem to get the chaff lately. [/b]

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I've heard that the diesel VW's (and some of the new Dodge / Jeeps) come from the factory with a tank of B5 or B10 (either 5 or 10% biodiesel) from the factory. Is that what you mean?

In France, they're mandating that all petro diesel sold be combined with a minimum percentage of bio...something like 2-3%. Pretty neat. I wish we could do that here in the US.

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I have a mental image of trying to 'heel & toe' in 4" stiletto heels and a French maid's costume...[/b]

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As long as the heels and costume are SFI rated, I don't see any issues... Heh, heh...

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>>Wouldn't it be nice if we were part of a racing organization that was a leader in alternative fuels? [/b]

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My feelings exactly. I lived in Europe for a while and I saw a special "Renault Campus" class run at LeMans a few times that was powered on fuel made from beets. It was fun to watch... single seater formula cars, no wings allowed, small engines (1 liter?).

I've got other feelings about the SCCA "getting with it" and making some changes to attract / adapt to the younger audience of enthusiasts, but that's probably for another time. I left my soap box at home...

Would it be worth it to call Kansas and ask if there are any provisions for diesels running?

While I konw very little about it, the car that won Sebring this year was a diesel. From a neighbor who was there commented that the fuel sure didn't look like diesel, it was clear and not at all oily.

I read or heard that those cars were about 1100-1200 ft-lbs, 600hp. A slight difference in torque vrs HP than most race engines. I could be wrong on the numbers, but I think the ratio is about right.

Digging into my 'wayback' memory I remember reading about guys who were racing the original diesel rabbits in the US. Not sure what club they ran w/, obviously it was at a regional level. It has been done.

Pertinent news from across the pond...

"Rally Ireland has announced plans to become world leaders in the area of sustainable motorsport. The World Rally Championship (WRC) candidate event has set the ambitious target of becoming carbon neutral by 2010, the first major motorsport event to do so."

More at http://rally.racing-live.com/wrc/en/headli...607144937.shtml

K

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Wouldn't it be nice if we were part of a racing organization that was a leader in alternative fuels?[/b]

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Stand by for changes to the fuel specifications in a future Fastrack. The CRB and BoD hope to have new fuel rules in place for 2007 which would permit diesel, biodiesel, and ethanol up to E-85. Straight methanol and ethanol burn clear, so we will need time to adjust for their safety requirements before permitting them.

Any person interested to run a diesel in 2007 - N/A, TD or TDI - in IT, Prod, or SS (for example) needs to download a VTS sheet and get your application in ASAP. As a member of the CRB I guarantee you that we will consider it with an open mind. Be prepared to answer lots of questions, but SCCA definitely wants to address alternative fuels proactively.

For instance, we have looked at the VW diesels fairly closely, and already have identified about how much hp we think they can make in IT-legal trim (ignoring the turbo for now):

1.6 N/A - 70 hp/70 lb-ft (ITC?)
1.6 TD - 100 hp/150 lb-ft (ITB?)
1.9 TD - 130 hp/200 lb-ft (ITA?)
1.9 TDI - 180 hp/250 lb-ft (don't know, maybe ITR)

Stan Clayton
(out of town this weekend and may not be able to answer email until Monday)

Excellent!! :035: :023:

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For instance, we have looked at the VW diesels fairly closely, and already have identified about how much hp we think they can make in IT-legal trim (ignoring the turbo for now):

1.6 TD - 100 hp/150 lb-ft (ITB?)
1.9 TD - 130 hp/200 lb-ft (ITA?)

[/b]

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Cameron, you build one of these and I'll drive it for you!

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As a member of the CRB I guarantee you that we will consider it with an open mind. Be prepared to answer lots of questions, but SCCA definitely wants to address alternative fuels proactively.
[/b]

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Not sure I'll be ready to run one in 2007, but I'd definitely want to be part of the process. You can email me privately with whatever questions you'd like and I'll respond to the best of my ability. There are ASTM specs for diesel fuel and biodiesel can be compared to those... I can even provide samples if you like...

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For instance, we have looked at the VW diesels fairly closely, and already have identified about how much hp we think they can make in IT-legal trim (ignoring the turbo for now):[/b]

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This is great news that people have already considered this. Exciting.... Does this mean that the TD's won't be initially considered then? The whole reason that this came up is that a friend of mine runs a turbo diesel rabbit in F-Street Prepared (Solo) under the "all A1's are on the same line" rule in the rule books. Very interesting car, very competitive... I know that IT classings aren't organized the same...

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1.6 N/A - 70 hp/70 lb-ft (ITC?)
1.6 TD - 100 hp/150 lb-ft (ITB?)[/b]

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These are the two I'm most interested in... I'd say those are fair estimates.

Any discussion on how the rules would view injection pump modifications? In reality, that's where a lot of performance is gained.

FWIW, Al Taylor ran a biodiesel E30 in BMWCCA club racing for a couple of seasons. It did a great job cutting down the insect population around VIR. I think it probably would have been competetive in ITB

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Cameron, you build one of these and I'll drive it for you!
[/b]

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Bring me a car and a budget and I'll build it for you!

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Any discussion on how the rules would view injection pump modifications? In reality, that's where a lot of performance is gained.
[/b]

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I'd think injection pump timing should be open, like ignition distributors on gasoline cars, but maybe keep the internals stock, how can you regulate injection pump internals, either you have to just let it be open, or you have to expect that people will follow the rules and keep it stock, because no one is going to dismantle an injection pump in impound!

I can...and I know what I'm lookin' at, too!

GregA, licensed SCCA tech inspector... ;)

Maybe we should have a seminar for Tech inspectors at Greg's house! "How to inspect a Diesel"

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... (ignoring the turbo for now) ...[/b]

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That's a pretty huge thing to ignore, seems like.

That said, this is a VERY cool development! We've been making noises about an enduro-spec TDI running bio or greasel for a long time.

K

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While I konw very little about it, the car that won Sebring this year was a diesel. From a neighbor who was there commented that the fuel sure didn't look like diesel, it was clear and not at all oily.

I read or heard that those cars were about 1100-1200 ft-lbs, 600hp. A slight difference in torque vrs HP than most race engines. I could be wrong on the numbers, but I think the ratio is about right.

[/b]

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Audi R10, Watch LeMans this year and see the R10s start from the pole and runaway with the whole 24 hours. Never mind, can't happen they are diesels.

There have been a couple teams for the past few years running bio-diesels in LeMans. Some drivers complained the bio guys had an un fair advantage. It seems the french fry smell comming out of thhe cars made the other divers have hunger pains and an uncontrollable craving for food causing them to become distracted and not drive up to their full potential.

1.9 TDI ?

Is that a
1.9 TDI
http://www.ngpracing.com/Merchant2/g..._sil_thumb.jpg
1.9 TDI
http://www.ngpracing.com/Merchant2/g...adge_thumb.jpg
1.9 TDI
or
1.9 TDI
http://www.ngpracing.com/Merchant2/g..._red_thumb.jpg
??? :P

http://www.bildon.com/catalog/images...at_bottom4.jpg

I have not read all of this thread but I am close to my one millionth mile run in 1.6 N/A 2 dr. Jettas. Done a lot to the three cars it took to get there. I just got my 1985 Golf GTI ITB car and will be working on my license this year. Get the Diesels on the track and I'll be a 2 car family. :D

Terry Schneider
85 GTI ITB (newbie)
85 Jetta 2 Dr. Diesel (pro)

There was a guy w/ a ProRally biodiesel Mk IV TDI Golf at Waterfest a couple of years ago. Probably the same guy as the one that Bill posted, but at the time, IIRC, his car was blue. I spoke to him a bit about it, and he said that he did pretty well w/ it.

Speaking of Diesels... Audi finally turned up the boost...

http://www.lemans.org/24heuresdumans/live/...chronos_gb.html

1100 Nm @ 3500 RPM :blink:

And this just in.....


Peugeot bravely announces it will win Le Mans with HDi Diesel Technology!

June 15, 2005 Peugeot has announced its intentions to win at the famous Le Mans 24 Hours race, in a diesel powered vehicle featuring Peugeot HDi technology. The vehicle, to be developed in 2006 will also be equipped with a diesel particulate filter system.

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Peugeot bravely announces it will win Le Mans with HDi Diesel Technology![/b]

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Oh yeah? Well, not this year, as Audi have locked up the front row, two seconds clear of the field. Hmm, fastest car, able to cover an extra lap due to fuel efficiency, and that famous Audi reliability.

I smell a diesel winning at Le Mans...! :happy204:

Better late than never I guess, it would be nice to see a little competition out there. If they tangle real nice in 07, maybe I'll go watch in 08! 2nd Honeymoon maybe! "Honey, you want to go to France?"

Stay here: http://www.bookings.org/hotel/fr/chateaude...html?aid=300620
From 200 Euros / night. C'est tres magnifique!

http://www.bookings.net/images/hotel...194/194949.jpg

At the risk of jinxing them, looks like they've got it well in hand.