http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/File/GCR2006.pdf
Printable View
Yay and it isn't locked from copying to paste! Watch out for the stream of quotes from all the rules nerds - no more typing.
Kirk and Greg will be on a roll now. ;)
Awesome ! The e36 BMW in ITS gets to ditch the SIR and the e30 gets it, WOW.
Must be a conspiracy :119:
Seriously, is that a misprint? The E36 weight is still 2850 pounds, and the restrictor plate is gone.Quote:
Originally posted by Fastfred92@Dec 5 2005, 08:36 PM
Awesome ! The e36 BMW in ITS gets to ditch the SIR and the e30 gets it, WOW.
Do I really end up getting the winter off?
I am pretty sure it is a misprint but man if I had a e36 ITS car I sure would print a copy of this and run my first race of 06 without the SIR!Quote:
Originally posted by MikeBlaszczak@Dec 6 2005, 01:22 AM
Seriously, is that a misprint? The E36 weight is still 2850 pounds, and the restrictor plate is gone.
Do I really end up getting the winter off?
[snapback]67411[/snapback]
First, an SIR and a plate restrictor are two very different things..the E36 runs a plate and NO IT car has ever run an SIR.
The E36 has been discussed, but as far as I know there has been no final decision.
(And of all the options, retaining the weight and dropping the restrictor...wasn't one of them...sorry!)
Ok...so I'm building a SM....did I read it correctly that you cannot balance and blueprint a Spec Miata motor??? How in gods name are they getting the power out of them without that?? 5K for a motor???? fancy parts? hmmm <_<
don't kid yourself, they are. they just do it via "parts bin blueprinting" instead of the typical machining method. unfortunately, the parts bin method results in "factory" 6000 motors. they do this by literally purchasing bins full of motor parts, and hand pick out the lightest and the ones that are the closest in weight.Quote:
Originally posted by zracre@Dec 5 2005, 11:36 PM
Ok...so I'm building a SM....did I read it correctly that you cannot balance and blueprint a Spec Miata motor??? How in gods name are they getting the power out of them without that?? 5K for a motor???? fancy parts? hmmm <_<
[snapback]67435[/snapback]
i could go much deeper into how they're making power, but that's for another thread.
If you do go deeper into it in another thread...dont leave me in the dust!!! I'd like to know more as I would like to increase my chances as much as legally possible!!!! Thanks!! B)Quote:
Originally posted by tnord@Dec 6 2005, 01:53 AM
i could go much deeper into how they're making power, but that's for another thread.
[snapback]67437[/snapback]
On the SM engine question, there's no published tolerence for the cam pulley keyways. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.
K
So, are these all of the changes for '06? Any of the other adjustments that have been discussed will wait for '07 (if they will happen at all)?
Evan, that is correct, you are not allowed to do so. However, as pointed out, it's being done primarily because it is totaly unenforcable. Machine work can be done in such a way as it looks factory (after all, the factory has to do it) and who's to say your engine didn't come from the factory that way?Quote:
Originally posted by zracre@Dec 5 2005, 10:36 PM
...you cannot balance and blueprint a Spec Miata motor???[snapback]67435[/snapback]
Do a search on specmiata.com forums and you'll find SCADS of threads arguing these exact issues.
To the topic at hand: has anyone sent a note to the CRB to issue an Errors and Omissions on the E36/E30 spec lines? We're all talking about it, but I've not seen where anyone has acted on it... - GA
Quote:
Originally posted by GregAmy@Dec 6 2005, 02:16 PM
To the topic at hand: has anyone sent a note to the CRB to issue an Errors and Omissions on the E36/E30 spec lines? We're all talking about it, but I've not seen where anyone has acted on it... - GA
[snapback]67449[/snapback]
I for one hope it does not get caught, it would be a interesting year on the forums to see the RX7 guys go nuts about this !
Just kidding :lol:
kirk is on the right track, using slop in various bolt holes in the water pump (i'm not quite sure how this one works) and crank pulleys essentially allows you to alter cam timing a degree or two. as mentioned, balanced and blueprinted motors, REM'd cranks, cams, gearboxes, rear ends etc is another. i've heard whispers of people opening up the AFM (which is now legal) and not only adjusting the flap in there, but zapping some of the resistors with a laser to change something or other. removing a miniscule amount of material and polishing hub bearings on hubs repacked with low friction synthetic grease is another trick. ceramic coated pistons as well as the inside of a header are some others i've heard of. fiddling with ECU's via a method i'm not aware of.Quote:
Originally posted by zracre@Dec 6 2005, 08:27 AM
If you do go deeper into it in another thread...dont leave me in the dust!!! I'd like to know more as I would like to increase my chances as much as legally possible!!!! Thanks!! B)
[snapback]67443[/snapback]
i'm sure there's more out there, i'm just not exactly sure what they are.
Do we have an ETA for accurate information?Quote:
Originally posted by lateapex911@Dec 6 2005, 04:18 AM
First, an SIR and a plate restrictor are two very different things..the E36 runs a plate and NO IT car has ever run an SIR.
The E36 has been discussed, but as far as I know there has been no final decision.
(And of all the options, retaining the weight and dropping the restrictor...wasn't one of them...sorry!)
For the BMWs? If that's what you mean, simply swap the notes lines for the E30 and E36, and that would be correct. This can be verified by following the 2005 GCR and the subsequent Fastracks; somethow those two got swapped when the '06 GCr was written up. - GAQuote:
Originally posted by MikeBlaszczak@Dec 6 2005, 07:02 PM
Do we have an ETA for accurate information?
[snapback]67478[/snapback]
well the only stuff im going to do now is mill the head for proper comp ratio, install saferacer exhaust, new injectors, water pump, new timing belt with aforementioned slop for proper timing ;) then tune on a dyno doing as much as I can with the AFM adjustments and timing. I am curious how much power it will produce...stock 110k bottom end...
Evan, I told you some Miatas were more speck than others. They usually run close to the back of the field.
So my race weight has gone down to 2750? Or are you saying just the "Notes" column? Then there is no race weight increase for E36es in the 2006 season?Quote:
Originally posted by GregAmy@Dec 7 2005, 01:54 AM
For the BMWs? If that's what you mean, simply swap the notes lines for the E30 and E36, and that would be correct. This can be verified by following the 2005 GCR and the subsequent Fastracks; somethow those two got swapped when the '06 GCr was written up. - GA
Nope, if it indicates a weight change then that's wrong too.
To be safe, use the '05 GCR; there have been no specs changes to the E36 during '05 that I'm aware of. - GA
Quote:
Originally posted by GregAmy@Dec 8 2005, 05:44 PM
Nope, if it indicates a weight change then that's wrong too.
To be safe, use the '05 GCR; there have been no specs changes to the E36 during '05 that I'm aware of. - GA
[snapback]67607[/snapback]
Guys, the 2006 GCR obviously has some misprints in it... There are still a list of things with the CRB that have yet to be implemented in the GCR for 2006... I'm pretty certain you'll be notified via Fastrack over the next couple of months... The BoD/CRB meetings are being finalized now, so we should all be hearing something soon...
It might be obvious to you as an insider, but it certainly isn't obvious to the rest of us -- what the book says goes.Quote:
Originally posted by Banzai240@Dec 8 2005, 06:48 PM
Guys, the 2006 GCR obviously has some misprints in it... There are still a list of things with the CRB that have yet to be implemented in the GCR for 2006... I'm pretty certain you'll be notified via Fastrack over the next couple of months... The BoD/CRB meetings are being finalized now, so we should all be hearing something soon...
[snapback]67614[/snapback]
Do you have a specific ETA for correct information? I'd like to get working on my car so I don't have to rush through the winter.
That's a good point. It seems like, particularly since it should be published identically other than each year's marginal changes, the official release of each years GCR could be goof-free. Every year though, something appears.Quote:
Originally posted by MikeBlaszczak@Dec 9 2005, 03:51 AM
It might be obvious to you as an insider, but it certainly isn't obvious to the rest of us -- what the book says goes. ...
What's really funny is when nobody says anything the first year, the second year, the third...and the error ends up becoming a de facto new rule.
K
Why don't you guys just call Jeremy at SCCA Tech... He's the one who will fix it...Quote:
Originally posted by Knestis@Dec 9 2005, 12:37 PM
That's a good point. It seems like, particularly since it should be published identically other than each year's marginal changes, the official release of each years GCR could be goof-free. Every year though, something appears.
What's really funny is when nobody says anything the first year, the second year, the third...and the error ends up becoming a de facto new rule.
K
[snapback]67694[/snapback]
Or, you could just add weight to your E30 and put a restrictor on it... Not sure how either would affect a winter build... :blink:
I don't really care if you E36 guys take the restrictor off or not... it isn't restricting anything anyhow... :P
-----Original Message-----Quote:
Originally posted by Banzai240@Dec 9 2005, 01:00 PM
Why don't you guys just call Jeremy at SCCA Tech... He's the one who will fix it...
Or, you could just add weight to your E30 and put a restrictor on it... Not sure how either would affect a winter build... :blink:
I don't really care if you E36 guys take the restrictor off or not... it isn't restricting anything anyhow... :P
[snapback]67698[/snapback]
From: Jeremy Thoennes [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 12:21 PM
To: Jim Cohen
Cc: John Bauer
Subject: RE: correction...ITCS
We will correct, thanks
-Jeremy
I already did thot for you guys...
It's true, but if you see something that is obviously in conflict with common sense, then it makes a tremendous amount of sense to ASK before you make a change...because if it is a mistake, it's going to cost you money for rushing to try and take advantage of an error.Quote:
Originally posted by MikeBlaszczak@Dec 9 2005, 02:51 AM
It might be obvious to you as an insider, but it certainly isn't obvious to the rest of us -- what the book says goes.
Do you have a specific ETA for correct information? I'd like to get working on my car so I don't have to rush through the winter.
[snapback]67689[/snapback]
I also don't see any weight misprints. The E30 is 2750 and the E36 is 2850...same as in 2005. What is the problem there?
Other than the removal or installation of a RP, there are no issues. What could be holding your off-season up? Seriously?
AB
All of this goes back to my original question:The way I'm reading this thread, the published GCR is just a "draft"? The cars in various classes, rules, etc. are subject to change for 2006? I guess I simply do not understand. I thought that once the GCR was published, those were the rules for that year (excluding misprints). I thought the process for approved items was something like this: proposal to CRB board > fastrack > board approves > fastrack > big board > approves > GCR. I was previously told quite adimately by headquarters that just because it says it was approved in the Fastrack, do not make any decisions till you see it in the GCR. So how does this process really work?Quote:
So, are these all of the changes for '06? Any of the other adjustments that have been discussed will wait for '07 (if they will happen at all)?
...and excluding changes published during the year via Fastrack. Changes in Fastrack will denote when they become effective, and they decisively DO NOT always apply only to subsequent years. If approved by the CRB, classification and specs changes can become effective immediately.Quote:
Originally posted by gran racing@Dec 9 2005, 08:06 AM
I thought that once the GCR was published, those were the rules for that year (excluding misprints).[snapback]67705[/snapback]
You were misled; see above.Quote:
I was previously told quite adimately by headquarters that just because it says it was approved in the Fastrack, do not make any decisions till you see it in the GCR.
There is no requirement that rules changes be published in Fastrack for membership review and approval, that's simply the typical process. The CRB has the power to, for example, immediately disqualify your car without further membership comment or input (so you better get that body damage fixed pronto! ;) ) - GA
On edit: Dave, one thing I forgot to mention: all changes to the GCR must be published in Fastrack beforehand, and all Fastrack information becomes null and void in subsequent years, unless it is published in the subsequent year's GCR. Therefore, if you find a change in the GCR from a prior year, yet you cannot find where that change was published in a Fastrack, then it is invalid and needs to be addressed by E&O.
These "changes" to the E30 and E36 BMW are a case in point: these "changes" did not appear in a Fastrack in 2005, therefore they are considered typos and not valid.
Another example was the Miata hard tops; I noticed in the 2005 GCR that the hard tops in IT were changed from "must" to "may"; I could not recall seeing it in Fastrack thus I assumed it was an error. However, a quick note to Jeremy Thoennes confirmed that the change was indeed published in Fastrack in 2004 and was, therefore, legal and effective.
We'll make a rules nerd out of you yet... - GA
Dave,
Fast Track is just as important as the GCR. It serves as:
- Notification of many items
- Rules on Protests
- Rule changes and their effective dates
- Corrections and Ommissions
- Requests for input
- etc
It is an extension of the GCR. If you really wanted to be dilligent, you should have your GCR at every race PLUS the Fast Tracks from the entire previousl year and every one up to date from the current.
AB
I download every Fastrack and use Acrobat to trim out the extraneous stuff (Solo, Rally, entry forms), then keep one PDF of everything from that year. I've always got my notebook PC with me, so at anytime I can search for something that may have happened during the year.
As I did last year, I'm making this PDF available for download for a limited time (1-2 weeks max before I delete it). "Save Target As..." this link and you'll have a PDF with all racing-related stuff from 2005.
2.3 MB
http://www.kakashiracing.com/temp/2005Fastrack.pdf
(On edit: see changes to my post above if you missed them. - GA)
I just want to get this straight since it goes against what I was previously told and I don't want to provide others wrong info in the future.
For example: If a car show in the Fastrack as approved to be moved to X class effective 2006, it is a done deal?
This goes back to my prelude being reclasses last year. I saw it was in the Fastrack for 2005 (not proposed) but was told to sit tight, it still needed to be passed by the other "big board" before it is final.
Thanks for the clarification!!
"I am a Bill, yes I'm only a Bill, and I'm sittin' here on Capitol Hill..." - Schoolhouse Rock
Dave, all rules changes go through a process, typically from an individual member, to the respective committee (in our case, the ITAC), then to the Club Racing Board, then to the Board of Directors. With the exception of the first step (the ITAC), the minutes of those meetings are published in Fastrak. This is why you may see a proposed rule change 2-3 times in Fastrak before it becomes approved.
The key point is to read the Fastrak when it's published. All changes are published there, and it'll be your only opportunity to offer input before going up for review. When reading Fastrak, it's important to not just scan for "Improved Touring" but also to read UP from there to find out what section it's in. Some examples:
There's an inverse bold section labeled "CLUB RACING BOARD MINUTES". IN there you'll find the minutes of the CRB meeting. Within that are sections labeled:
- PROPOSED RULE CHANGES
- SUBMITTED TO BoD FOR APPROVAL
- RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE BoD
- MEMBER ADVISORIES
- NEW CAR CLASSIFICATIONS
- REFERRED or TABLED
- NOT RECOMMENDED
The BoD stuff is what you need to pay attention to. That's what the CRB has agreed to and has submitted to the BoD for approval. It's VERY rare that the BoD does not approve CRB recommendations, so once it's gotten through the CRB it's almost a done deal.
Once the BoD reviews it, you'll see another inverse-bold area labeled "BOARD OF DIRECTORS MEETING MINUTES" and a section labeled "CLUB RACING BOARD"; following it will be the results of the BoD review of these recommendations. Once you see a rule within this showing "approved" it is effective on the date specified.
Another section to be ware of is "Technical Bulletins". This section is provided typically for E&O and/or clarifications to any rule which does not need CRB or BoD approval.
Dave,Quote:
Originally posted by gran racing@Dec 9 2005, 11:36 AM
This goes back to my prelude being reclasses last year. I saw it was in the Fastrack for 2005 (not proposed) but was told to sit tight, it still needed to be passed by the other "big board" before it is final.
Thanks for the clarification!!
[snapback]67735[/snapback]
What Fast Track are you referring to? I bet there was mention of the move in multiples. One as a proposal, another as a change.
Look here to sort:
http://www.scca.com/Garage/Index.asp?IdS=0...90&x=090|005&~=
Quote:
Originally posted by GregAmy@Dec 9 2005, 01:29 PM
"I am a Bill, yes I'm only a Bill, and I'm sittin' here on Capitol Hill..." - Schoolhouse Rock
Dave, all rules changes go through a process, typically from an individual member, to the respective committee (in our case, the ITAC), then to the Club Racing Board, then to the Board of Directors. With the exception of the first step (the ITAC), the minutes of those meetings are published in Fastrak. This is why you may see a proposed rule change 2-3 times in Fastrak before it becomes approved.
The key point is to read the Fastrak when it's published. All changes are published there, and it'll be your only opportunity to offer input before going up for review. When reading Fastrak, it's important to not just scan for "Improved Touring" but also to read UP from there to find out what section it's in. Some examples:
There's an inverse bold section labeled "CLUB RACING BOARD MINUTES". IN there you'll find the minutes of the CRB meeting. Within that are sections labeled:
- PROPOSED RULE CHANGES
- SUBMITTED TO BoD FOR APPROVAL
- RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE BoD
- MEMBER ADVISORIES
- NEW CAR CLASSIFICATIONS
- REFERRED or TABLED
- NOT RECOMMENDED
The BoD stuff is what you need to pay attention to. That's what the CRB has agreed to and has submitted to the BoD for approval. It's VERY rare that the BoD does not approve CRB recommendations, so once it's gotten through the CRB it's almost a done deal.
Once the BoD reviews it, you'll see another inverse-bold area labeled "BOARD OF DIRECTORS MEETING MINUTES" and a section labeled "CLUB RACING BOARD"; following it will be the results of the BoD review of these recommendations. Once you see a rule within this showing "approved" it is effective on the date specified.
Another section to be ware of is "Technical Bulletins". This section is provided typically for E&O and/or clarifications to any rule which does not need CRB or BoD approval.
[snapback]67745[/snapback]
Quote:
In addition:
ATTENTION SCCA MEMBERS
As approved by the SCCA Board of Directors, beginning with the March issue of SportsCar, FasTrack News will not longer be published and distributed in the Magazine.
FasTrack will continue to be produced as the form of Official SCCA Member Notification and made available on-line in a printable PDF format via the SCCA Garage section of SCCA.com.
Beginning in February, FasTrack will be posted to this section of the SCCA web site no later than the 20th of each month. Unless otherwise noted, all changes outlined in FasTrack will take effect 10 days later on the first day of the following month.
E-MAIL NOTIFICATION
Beginning January 3, 2006 SCCA members may register to receive an automated e-mail notification each month when the latest issue of FasTrack has been posted to the web. To register for e-mail notification, simply edit your Member Profile to request the notification. If you have not yet accessed your Member Profile, visit SCCA.com and log on by clicking the “SCCA Member Login” button at the top of any page or the “Member Login” button in the Members section of the left hand navigation bar.
Just make sure that, when you read it in Fastrack, you know which section it's under... As things go through the approval process, they transition from "suggested" or "recommended" to "approved", etc... They aren't official until they are "approved" and implemented...
Thanks guys. I've got it now (I think).
I'd like to know the minimum race weight for my car. If I'm still at 2850, then I'm ready to go racing.Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Dec 9 2005, 01:35 PM
I also don't see any weight misprints. The E30 is 2750 and the E36 is 2850...same as in 2005. What is the problem there?
Other than the removal or installation of a RP, there are no issues. What could be holding your off-season up? Seriously?
If I'm getting a weight penalty, I'd like to know so that I can evaluate which class I'll run in and start to prepare the car appropriately. If I stay [focused] in ITS, I'll need to start fabricating a ballast box, get it mounted and filled; and then start working on performance improvements to try to overcome whatever weight was assigned to me.
I've been thinking about new wheels. If my race weight stays the same, I have the room to get lighter wheels. If my race weight changes heavier, I don't want to get lighter wheels. Not yet, anyway.
There have been posts on this form saying that the E36es will get more weight for the 2006 season. I'm surprised to not find it here. There's been repeated posts about the rules for ballast changing to accommodate the large amount of weight the E36es were rumored to be getting, but rule 9.L remains the same about aft of the firewall and fore of the seat.
Darin says that there's still a list of things that haven't been implemented for 2006 yet. You seem to be saying that the pipeline is clear, and that I can plan on racing my car as it is specified in the 2006 copy of the GCR we have.
Greg says a weight change is wrong. Jake says that retaining last year's weight wasn't an option. (Or, maybe he meant dropping the restrictor _and_ keeping the same weight wasn't an option.)
If the rules change, I'll roll with the punches and figure out what to do. But I want them to get settled quickly so that my limited preparation time isn't compromised and so that I can commit to the season as early as possible.
Championships are won in the off-season, after all.
Seriously.
Well, I don't know what car you have, But to the best of my knowledge - and as a tech inspector and rules nerd I tend to follow these things closely - the specs are as follows:
BMW 325i/is (87-91), 2750#, Notes: Trunk mounted fuel cell with no larger capacity than stock.
BMW 325i/is (2&4-door, 92-95), 2850#, Notes: TRunk mounted fuel cell with no larger capacity than stock. Throttle restrictor between throttle body and plenum is mandatory (snippage of restrictor details...)
Basically, exactly the same as the 2005 ITCS. - GA
As of right now, if you have an E36 325i/is, you are at 2850 with the RP. The "NOTES" section of the 2006 GCR on the E30 and E36 cars were mixed up.Quote:
Originally posted by MikeBlaszczak@Dec 9 2005, 04:55 PM
I'd like to know the minimum race weight for my car. If I'm still at 2850, then I'm ready to go racing.
If I'm getting a weight penalty, I'd like to know so that I can evaluate which class I'll run in and start to prepare the car appropriately. If I stay [focused] in ITS, I'll need to start fabricating a ballast box, get it mounted and filled; and then start working on performance improvements to try to overcome whatever weight was assigned to me.
I've been thinking about new wheels. If my race weight stays the same, I have the room to get lighter wheels. If my race weight changes heavier, I don't want to get lighter wheels. Not yet, anyway.
There have been posts on this form saying that the E36es will get more weight for the 2006 season. I'm surprised to not find it here. There's been repeated posts about the rules for ballast changing to accommodate the large amount of weight the E36es were rumored to be getting, but rule 9.L remains the same about aft of the firewall and fore of the seat.
Darin says that there's still a list of things that haven't been implemented for 2006 yet. You seem to be saying that the pipeline is clear, and that I can plan on racing my car as it is specified in the 2006 copy of the GCR we have.
Greg says a weight change is wrong. Jake says that retaining last year's weight wasn't an option. (Or, maybe he meant dropping the restrictor _and_ keeping the same weight wasn't an option.)
If the rules change, I'll roll with the punches and figure out what to do. But I want them to get settled quickly so that my limited preparation time isn't compromised and so that I can commit to the season as early as possible.
Championships are won in the off-season, after all.
Seriously.
[snapback]67771[/snapback]
One issue I do have Mike, you have stated that you have more development to do. How will you make a decision based on the competitivness of your program when you haven't taken it to the max? The ballsat rules have changed prior to this year. The removal of the 100lb maximum was neccesary for changes that we had in mind. The E36 was one, but it primarily centered around some cars that could move DOWN a class but needed weight to do so.
For your world, we have received letters over the past 6 months that have:
- Asked us to keep the E36 as is
- Asked us to eliminate the RP on the E36
- Asked us to eliminate the RP on the E36 AND ADD ONE TO THE RX-7
- Asked us to elimiante the RP on the E36 and increase it's weight commensurate with the current "process" for classification
- Accused us of blatent favortism toward the RX-7 combined with accusations of smear campains and made up information
- Accused us of "anti-BMW" policies
The CRB has a decision to make with regard to your car. It's the only one with a RP because it's current weight has it too light for it's power potential. Status quo? SIR? Un-restricted but properly weighted? I don't know.
I understand your issue but what I would say to you is that no matter what they choose, the objective is not to kill the E36 but to surround it with the same parameters as the rest of the class. There are 3 "E36-type" cars in ITA right now that are outside the current parameters for the class...and we hope to affect them for the benefit of the class as a whole. Again, not to crush them into oblivion - but to put them through our process and try and start with a theme of equality.
AB