So are we ready for this years race? I know the dates changed.....
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Evan Darling
ITA Integra
Printable View
So are we ready for this years race? I know the dates changed.....
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Evan Darling
ITA Integra
Since the traditional date usually falls on my anniversary, I am very interested in a new date.
Care to share?
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Chris Wire
Team Wire Racing
ITS Mazda RX7 #35
[email protected]
I saw it posted somewhere that it is moved to the 12th and 13th....but im not sure.....anyone else???
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Evan Darling
ITA Integra
I also have Nov 12th and 13th on my calendar, but I don't recall the source of that info.
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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
ARRC dates are November 11-13. See y'all there.
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Bob Pinkowski
Atlanta Region SCCA
ITS Honda Prelude
Looks like I'm going to be there crewing for the current, multi National Champion in ITC and the future National Champion in ITA. I'll stay off the track this year, so the rest of you guys will feel safer racing.
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Chris Harris
ITC Honda Civic
I didn't realize there was a National Champion recognized in IT racing, or any regional class
Do you mean the ARRC champ. I do not see where, if you when that race you are the national champ. Is this addressed in the GCR? I think we could all agree that the ARRC is mainly consist of competitors form the southeast or east. I know there are a few who travel, but are we truly geeting the best from all over the country. This event is open to anyone, it is not by invitation or an event that one has to qualify for is it?
While I would agree there is a high caliber of competitors, (mainly from the region), I don't think that if you win you are the national champ. If you win you are the winner of the ARRC, just as if you won the June Sprints. A great win, yes but national champ, no.
Quote:
Originally posted by trd77:
While I would agree there is a high caliber of competitors, (mainly from the region), I don't think that if you win you are the national champ. If you win you are the winner of the ARRC, just as if you won the June Sprints. A great win, yes but national champ, no.
I agree. With all due respect the NARRC runnoffs at LRP are much much more competitive at least in ITB. ARRC is a fun event and I like that they due teardowns but it was one of the least competitive events I did last year. Me and my bro out qualified everyone by a full second. In the North East that never happens ever. I do like the event and it gets a lot of exposure but the fields are usually small and mostly South East people. A lot of us travel form New England because we like to do well "away from home" With all that being said it is a fun fun event with lots of good track time. You do get to drive with some great drivers and against some very well prepaired cars. Also the trophies are far far better than any trophies I have seen in Regional Racing!
Stephen
Stephen, you better bring your "A" game this year. Also, I raced in the NE for many years and the only thing they ever looked at in impound was if I had on nomex socks. PK
its the closest thing we have to a national runoff...it gets pretty good coverage by the mags (grassroots/sportscar etc) i think it would be cool to have the arrc at mid ohio now that the nat guys are done with it....more central and a beautiful place...
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Evan Darling
ITA Integra
Just an FYI. If the ARRC were to go to a track other than Road Atlanta the event would need to be named something else. Road Atlanta owns the name and have turned down offers from the Atlanta Region SCCA to buy it. It seems the SCCA just kind of forgot about the ARRC name and Jim Kanely picked it up in 1993 or so.
Will agree that the Improved Touring fields have been weak in recent years in comparison to the 1990s. I think this can be attributed to many of the IT racers moving to Spec Miata. With the SCCA revising specs for the IT cars hopefully we'll see the bigger fields return.
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Bob Pinkowski
Atlanta Region SCCA
ITS Honda Prelude
Sorry, maybe my ego was larger than some others in naming people national champions, but I doubt it. Having crewed for a recognized National Champion and seeing the fields in both Atlanta and Mid Ohio, I can say that they are really not much different there than they are at Road Atlanta. We dealt with mostly the "locals" at the Runoffs. I've raced against people from all over the nation and Canada at the ARRC. Even the there is a qualification structure for the Runoffs, a lot drivers/cars come that may have one their division, but are hardly competitive nationally. Maybe I should've put National in quotes. Everyone has the opportunity to attend. If Lance Armstrong chooses not to do the Tour de France, does the guy who wins not own the title? Sorry if anyone was offended.
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Chris Harris
ITC Honda Civic
If he wins the tour de france, he wins the title, but it is the title to that particular event, just like the ARRC. I do not think it is right to call yourself the national champion if you win the event. Do not get me wrong, its a great win. I have gone to the event to watch years ago, and to be honest I was not impressed. While the front runner were good and in great cars, the total field was not composed of high caliber cars and talent. It seemed to me to be just another regional. I would just like to know where it is written that it is recognized as a national champ. I also want to say that this is not only directed at you, I hear this or see it all the time. I just don't think it is right.
Whatever.
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Chris Harris
ITC Honda Civic
Quote:
Originally posted by charrbq:
Whatever.
Hey Chris I agree with you that it is awesome to win at that event. I was very very excited when I won 3rd in 2003 and super excited to be off pole in 2004 then terribly depressed to brake while I was in the lead on lap 5 yes not even 1/4 the wya through the race. arrrggg. Anyway It is several top running cars and great drivers like I said before. There is a reason I travel 18+ hrs to go! I also agree with you peter. I think some of the guys in ITB last year where not going as fast as they could in qualifying. Back when your car was running people where going a full second faster than I did this past year. I will also be honest in saying that I was the 5th fastest car at LRP for the NARRC and nothing changed on my car except new brakes and southern 89 octane fuel. With the new cars in ITB the feilds will be much tougher. I would say the Accord is definetly the new car to have for the class. David gran is doing very, very well from what I here in the North East!
Stephen
It is simply the most well recognised IT event...everyone nationally is invited to see who is the best...if the best IT driver decides to not come then he does not get the arrc title...if people want to turn IT national, (see other thread) then they should attend at least one ARRC type event to decide and show numbers...where else is there a year end race for all the marbles?? just look at the SM entry list...all over the country.....
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Evan Darling
ITA Integra
The same could be said about the Runoffs and just about anyone can go these days. The difference is the history of the Runoffs and that SCCA National virtually ignores the ARRC providing little to no support.Quote:
Originally posted by trd77:
While the front runner were good and in great cars, the total field was not composed of high caliber cars and talent.
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Bob Pinkowski
Atlanta Region SCCA
ITS Honda Prelude
[This message has been edited by bobpink (edited May 17, 2005).]
It is just my opinion, but I am sure that others share it, If there is no tear down then an event does not carry much weight, period. There is so much cheating especially in IT, that for any championship to carry weight there needs to be a tear down, no matter how extensive it may or may not be. I do not say this to offend anyone, but the ARRC is the only IT championship that offers a tear down, which to me makes it by far the most legit championship. As far as big fields, I agree with previous statements regarding the fields being smaller because of spec miata. I also think that the reason the fields are smaller is because people know that if they win, their motor is gonna get torn down. I know a lot of fast cars that have won championships in IT over the years that never raced at the ARRC, there is always an excuse, but after a number of years thats all it is, an excuse. Just my opinion, just like #ssholes, we all have one.
Derek Ketchie
#5 ITC
I agree about tear downs. It does make it a legitimate title. I have respect for the drivers who win and pass tear down. I also agree that the Runoffs are filled with classes that are not alway full of high caliber cars. However, one must qualify for the Runoffs and it is recognized by the SCCA as its National Championship. I would love to see the SCCA recognize that event or another event for championships. I know that it will never happen because it is a regional class. I would like to see the ARRC adopt a qualifying format for the event. I think one should have to finish in the top of their divison to compete. Until there is a qualifying format, it is just a regional event that has a good following, (mainly in the south), just as I wood say the same about the June Spirnts. Maybe the biggest National event other than the Runoffs, but just a National event none the less. I don't many from the south or east go to the June Sprints, it is mainly a regional event.
Andy (a fellow TR8 driver by the way) makes a good point. There were I think 11 car ITS fields at IRP this weekend in the Midwest (and Andy and his dad took 3rd and 4th no less, in IT-dinosaur TR8s).
The "perception" is that the NEDiv and the SEDiv have the fastest IT cars. BUt is this self-fulfilling because the means of judging this is the ARRC, which is held at Road Atlanta?
Maybe a more central location for the ARRC would be a good thing for IT. I suspect that some SEDiv and NEDiv drivers might be surprised at teh results. I see far more oddball cars in the results in the MidWest and Far West, and they seem to do ok (Supras and TR8s and Alfa GTV6s0
If a region in the middle of the country took the initiative to hold an IT love-fest (as the SEDiv has) then I'm certain it will attract a following (as the ARRC has). So, who's gonna step up to the plate to chair that little ditty...?Quote:
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Maybe a more central location for the ARRC would be a good thing for IT.</font>
Build it, and they will come...
This has been brought up before and is a good idea, but it I seem to recall it being mentioned that the divisions don't keep up with points for the Regional classes. It would seem easy enough to pick out the top finishers though.Quote:
Originally posted by trd77:
I think one should have to finish in the top of their divison to compete.
[This message has been edited by bobpink (edited May 17, 2005).]
I think the fastest IT cars tend to center around the builders that have developed programs...most of them are in the East.
ISC
Bimmerworld
Speedsource
BSI
Mechanic Shop North
If there was a West Coast Region who wanted to hold a 'unoffical' WC Championship, then in a few years someone would put on something at Mid Ohio, Heatland Park or someplace semi-central.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
That’s always nice to hear – thanks Stephen. I still have a long ways to go!
The ARRC has become what it is due to smart marketing of the event. I really love the idea of tear downs to help keep cars much more legit. It really adds credibility to the race. While I have a great deal of respect to those who do well at the ARRC, as others have said it is not a national championship event. Heck, there are other “championship” events such as the NARRC (and I’m sure others in various regions throughout the country). What makes these events less of a championship event? In reality it goes back to what I said in the first place - the marketing of the event. Until the ARRC is officially named the IT championship race, it simply isn’t. Would I love to win it? Heck yeah. But would I make the trip every year without it truly being the championship race? I doubt it but who knows. Regardless it sounds like great event to participate in.
Bob - it could be pretty cool to send out invitations to those top finishers even if the event is still open to anyone.
I realize that grass roots does some coverage of the event, but what about getting them to cover it even more. Are there any other ways to get the event even more exposure?
Going somewhat off topic, I have always thought it would be cool to have the "IT Championship" event held at varous different tracks. Kinda like the superbowl of IT.
Regions would be asked if they want to host the show, if so they would have some time to hype it up. It could also bring about some fun competition between regions who can out do who. Just an idea.
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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si
Since we've wandered a little afield...
Sears Point used to have the PCRRC (Pacific Coast Road Racing Championships) that attracted "the best" of the regional classes on the left edge of the country. We used to make the trek down from Seattle and the event had some luster. I don't think it survives today.
It could be done, as Greg suggests, to have any division/region/track step up and promote something similar to what the ARRC has become. However, it is NOT - regardless of what the ARRC folks do right - a national IT championship, official or otherwise.
Then again, I don't think much of the RubOffs, either.
K
The ARRC will never be named the IT Championships because the event features races from other regional classes as well. For me, it is was great to see the significant increase in open-wheel entries last year and I hope this year is even better. I would be happy to see each open-wheel class have its own race, but don't expect to see this any time soon.Quote:
Originally posted by gran racing:
Until the ARRC is officially named the IT championship race, it simply isn’t.
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Bob Pinkowski
Atlanta Region SCCA
ITS Honda Prelude
Some thoughts-
The Runoffs.....I'll stop short of saying something sound bite worhty, but they are a FAR cry from what they were, and what they could be. Honestly, if National was smart, and wanted to restore some interest and good racing (which they desperately need as the poor TV guys do the best they can with not much in certain classes), they would invite IT. SM will be there soon enough, and that will help the show.
The ARRCs. On one hand it's the defacto championship, but the region turnout is very strong. I applaud the region for taking the event seriously and doing partial teardowns, but remember guys, they are only partial, and lots of stuff could be slipping thriugh the net.
I see the point about certain guys who just never show up, and it is comical...like people don't wonder after a while. And I have also seen guys who blaze down the straights locally, but then barely keep up when they go to the ARRCs! Hmmmmmm....wonder why?
One word: Teardown.
So, it makes a big difference.
That said, no californian is going to drive all the way ....it just isn't the championship.
If it was by invitation only, I am afraid you would see less, not more entries. (And guys like me would never make it...we don't have IT7, so I wouldn't qualify)
I think Darin needs to spearhead an effort out west to something similar, and someone in the midwest to do the East vs West IT Championships. Invite the top dogs from both coasts, and then allow the remaining slots to be filled on a first come first served basis. In a perfect world, it could be fun....
But....the only problem with a three race format is who's gonna tow from Nova Scotia to Atlanta, back home, THEN turn around and go to Kansas!
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
Saying that no Californian would travel so far isn't exactly accurate. We raced a top California team for the championship a couple of years ago. We've also race people from Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec. The obstacle is the mountains. Not negogiating them in a tow vehicle, but the mental limiting area for travel both east and west. People just shut their brains off to it.
For a couple of years in the beginning to IT, the SCCA held a National Championship at Heartland Park for IT and AS (then regional), and called it a National Championship. Two things happened in '93...SCCA dropped support of National championships for IT, and they moved the Runoffs to Mid Ohio for '94. The folks at Road Atlanta and it's surrounding regions picked up the ball for us little guys. Obtaining the use of the term, "ARRC" from SCCA's history it became known for it's name's origin..."American Road Race of Champions", the name used before it became "The Runoffs". Now that doesn't make the winners of each class a national champion in the minds of many people, and I'm sorry I stirred up such a symantic uproar.
Having a qualification format would kill the race weekend. At the Runoffs, you're dealing with over twenty classes that aren't all well subscribed to (i.e., the former GT4 & GT5). At the ARRC, you're dealing with only four nationally recognized IT classes plus several small local and invitational groups and the ever swelling SM. Next year the Spec Miata group may possibly dwindle due to the timing of two major races.
Say that you take the top four from each class in each division just as they do for the Runoffs...pretty small entry! Also, consider the division that has only a few cars in some classes. Example, my former division only has two ITB cars racing and only three ITC. Only one of those five car/driver combinations is qualified to be competitive on any track at any time, but by using the same rules as the Runoffs, all could race for a national championship.
I suppose this calls for one more attempt at understanding. The Sox are known as champions of the World Series, yet they neither played any teams from Asia, nor was their championship recognized by the world.
Call it what you will, we refer to ourselves as National Champions. That said...Go Sox!
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Chris Harris
ITC Honda Civic
I agree with the World Series analogy. The are not world champs. MLB calls their championship series the "World Series", when in reality they are league champions and not National Champs because they have a team in Canada. You can call yourself an IT National Champion if you want, but you and others know it is a self appointed title. Where does it end. I was at the ARRC several years back and saw a guy racing a Mazad in the event. On the car he had written "legal southeastern division champ". Was this recognized by members of the southeast or is it understood that anybody who beat him was cheating. Can we all gives ourselves titles of national recognition. How about we just call you the ARRC Winner or the ARRC Champ
trd77,
the SARRC division is pretty much the southeastern U.S. So that racer's statement would be correct.
Derek Ketchie
sothe racer's statement on his car "legal southeast champion " is correct. he was a mid to end of the pack runner. so then if that statement is correct, everyone ahead of him is a confirmed cheater. If that is the case then there should be no crediblility in the southeast if everyone is acknowledgeing that the front runners are cheating
Sorry but if someone is willing to buy a sticker rather than a protest, he's part of the problem and leaves himself no room for whining.
K
My whole point unfortunately is that there is so much cheating in IT that in order for there to be a legit championship there needs to be a tear down. This is why I consider the ARRC more legit than the NARRC or anyother championship. Actually if you want to compare regions I give more credibility to a region that hosts a championship where there is a teardown rather than one that does not have a teardown. To me that makes sense. I have exercised my right to post money, and it does work and is the only true way to find out if they are legal or not.
Now that we've brutalized the term "Champion", does anyone want to come up with an interpretation of the bible that we all agree on?
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Chris Harris
ITC Honda Civic
(gets out 10-foot pole to not touch that with)
(flame suit on)
Having been to all of the ARRC races in Atlanta (since the IT Festival died), I have to say that some years the teardowns are MUCH better then others. Personally, I would like to see the top three come apart. We have no problem with doing it, and have still gotten them back together for Sunday. Can't do it? Oh well; don't race on Sunday (many don't anyway). I would like to see the IT crowd held to a HIGHER standard then the National classes. For those of us who drive from outside of that division for what is touted to be a premier event, let's at least make sure that the winners are legal.
Otherwise, it's just another regional where some of the cheaters don't show up.
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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers
madrabbit, I agree with your point about tear downs at the ARRC. I think it does give it a lot of legitimacy. I just thought it was funny seening this guy driving around midpack with this large sticker on each quater panel basicaly stating he was the fastest legal car and assuming that anyone who beat him was cheating. Did any else see this guy, it has been several years ago maybe 5-6. I always wonder what the story was behind hit
PRRC was retired, and re-born under the name Western States Shootout for the past two years. It was held at the final SFR regional event of theyear, and combined with the Illgen RDC 4 hour enduro.Quote:
Originally posted by Knestis:
Since we've wandered a little afield...
Sears Point used to have the PCRRC (Pacific Coast Road Racing Championships) that attracted "the best" of the regional classes on the left edge of the country. We used to make the trek down from Seattle and the event had some luster. I don't think it survives today.
<snip>
K
Unfortunately, due to low car counts, the "shootout" was cncelled this year, and the EOY regional moved to Sears Point.
Marcus
Quote:
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Call it what you will, we refer to ourselves as National Champions.</font>
Kinda makes you wonder what other envelopes people w/ this kind of attitude will push. BTW, just who are you trying to impress w/ that title?
I'm sort of w/ Kirk on this, I don't think it's appropriate for a single race to decide a National Champion. What other sanctioning body crowns a champion based on the result of one race? If anything, it's more akin to an all-star game than a championship.
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