Are these cars competitive? How much cost does it take to get to the pointy end of the grid?
Thanks much!
Jason
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Are these cars competitive? How much cost does it take to get to the pointy end of the grid?
Thanks much!
Jason
Yes, they are competitive. How much does it cost is a bit of an open-ended question. Depends on the area you are racing in. I'm in the Northeast and have to compete against the fastest Acura Integra and Honda CRXs in the country (the ARRC Winning ITA Integra was built here and sold to a guy in the Northeast who will be competing with it. The winner is building a new Integra), so I need to keep everything on the high end.Quote:
Originally posted by chumpy36:
Are these cars competitive? How much cost does it take to get to the pointy end of the grid?
Thanks much!
Jason
Your area might not be in the same position. However, the final answer will be it costs whatever money you have to put into it.
Yes, they are competitve with a good driver and setup. A 240SX finished second at last year's ARRC to the previously mentioned Integra. One of the best races between the two that I saw at the ARRC. In fact, I liked that 240SX so much that I bought it when it went up for sale. I'm still figuring out all the go fast goodies that were put on it. I can tell you that you'd have to spend some decent money if you were starting from scratch to build a top car.
Just for grins, I'll illustrate how much a good driver counts. Bob Stretch was running 1:43s at the ARRC and my best lap at the Road Atlanta SARRC at the end of Feb was a 1:57.8. Exact same car and exact same setup. That was my first race in anything ever, though, and Bob is just about a professional driver. So spending lots of money at first may be a waste if your skills aren't up to the car.
David
You can plan to spend $12-15,000 to build a decent 240. To Duplicate Bob's car would take well over $20,000-and that is if you got everything right the first time. There is a decent starting point on ebay as we speak. Item # 4538490977. Not my old car, but I know it well.
Jim
Jim - hope I'm not picking on a friend of yours here, but from the ad: "intake, race injectors, 100% legal and fast"...Quote:
Originally posted by ITA240:
There is a decent starting point on ebay as we speak. Item # 4538490977. Not my old car, but I know it well.
Jim
did I miss the memo http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif ?
Earl
Oh, and as far as the cost of building - if anyone would know Jim would, but I can also add that my cost to build will easily hit $14K by the time I'm done with all the little go-fast goodies, and that's with me doing most of the wrenching.
[This message has been edited by erlrich (edited March 25, 2005).]
Thanks for the opinions. What's the hot suspension for these cars now?
Thanks
You'll want to replace the rubber bushings with spherical bearings for starters. I hear that these make a huge difference in the S13.Quote:
Originally posted by chumpy36:
Thanks for the opinions. What's the hot suspension for these cars now?
Thanks
I'm not sure what Bob used for dampers, but you'll want race dampers, not some street peformance set-up. Koni 2817s are a great set-up, but they would run you $5-6k just for the struts. Below that you could run Koni 8611s or Advance Design.
For spring rates I don't have a clue for the S13.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
Well Geo selection is definatly goos stuff to look into. But id like to add to look into Bilstein shocks and Endless/Zeal of Japan. Endless is the most reputable company out of japan for racing Coilovers. The super funcftion is there flagship coilover and runs about $3000 for the 240sx. They can be rebuilt and revalved here in the U.S. also. check em out.
http://www.endlessusa.com/products/indexSu....php?id=20&pg=2
Probably can get a passable starting point in a good used one for $8,000 or so. I got one for a bit more than that with all the spares I could transport.
Though as maintenance begins being required on it - I am coming to realize the value of the extra expense of building.
My saying of the month is "If you want to even know how it was done - do it yourself."
A lot of head scratchers on a car that has been racing since 1997 - when more fabrication than bolt on was required for these.
The good thing is that I have a car to race while I find out whether or not I should build my own. The cost on the build so far is $450.
That is how much I picked up a notchback/coupe without a sunroof cost me in cash. The hours over the last 5 months actually finding one that was a good candidate as a donor car is another story.
I figured while I had the fast/hatchback to race, I could take the time to find the lighgter notchback donor.
Bob stretch was also running 12:1 compression on that car(stock is ~9.5:1, obviously breaking the .5 limit.) I saw it run at tms. I drive a highly modded s13 on the street. That car was in no way legal. Not to say that he can't drive, because he obvioulsy can. But dont compare his times in that car, cause it was proven illegal.Quote:
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> Bob Stretch was running 1:43s at the ARRC and my best lap at the Road Atlanta SARRC at the end of Feb was a 1:57.8. Exact same car and exact same setup</font>
Would you like to provide some support for that allegation? Because I for one don't think you have a clue what you're talking about. Not only are you slamming Bob, but you're also slamming Rebello Racing, who built the engines in Bob's 240SX. Bob went through 2 ARRC wins with the resultant inspections, and to my knowledge nothing on that car was ever found to be illegal.Quote:
Originally posted by its300zx:
Bob stretch was also running 12:1 compression on that car(stock is ~9.5:1, obviously breaking the .5 limit.) I saw it run at tms. I drive a highly modded s13 on the street. That car was in no way legal. Not to say that he can't drive, because he obvioulsy can. But dont compare his times in that car, cause it was proven illegal.
Earl
You have confused the Stretch Miata with his 240sx....The "winning" 04-ARRC miata he drove was determined to have real high compression during impound after race...DQd....Makes ya say Hmmm...I don't think his 240sx was cheater. My old z could pull him many car lengths at Road Atlanta his corner speed thru 6-7 would always surprise/inspire meQuote:
Originally posted by its300zx:
Bob stretch was also running 12:1 compression on that car(stock is ~9.5:1, obviously breaking the .5 limit.)But dont compare his times in that car, cause it was proven illegal.
david spillman
urban legends..... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif
WOW...where did that come from?
Jim
How many people here have seen that car run??? How many people here have ever driven an soch s13? seriously people. Bob stretch is a badass. I am not doubting that. Not for one milisecond. I just have heard from many that he got busted in atlanta. And That i heard that he was running 12:0 makes totals sense.
Again I drive a HIGHLY modded s13 on the street. An ITA SOHC s13 SHOULD NOT BE THAT FAST. I would not call him out as a cheater right out if I just guessed it. Many competetors from the race in ATL told me of this story. He supposedly hit the brakes at the end so he would not finish first.
Its not like Im making this shit up people.
Im happy that a 240z pulled him in the straights.. Because a 96 integra gsr that dyno'd 173hp at the wheels did not pull him.... Hrmm
that just seems kind of weird to me.
Dont try to talk shit about 240sx's to me
KA24E'S DO NOT PUT OUT THAT MUCH POWER
at least not in the legal ITA sense.
An s13 with a 100% legal ita motor
will not pull an its gsr integra making 173hp at the wheels in the straights like bob did.
You haters can talk shit all you want.
I never bashed bob. I gave him 100% respect in his driving ablility.
All I am saying is that his car was faster than physically possible according to Improved touring rules.
Again you doubters/sackriders out there can doubt me, but I dont really care.
The original post was questioning whether or not the s13 was competetive or not....
It is. It is cheap to build. (my street s13 could wreck shop on a proper racetrack)
The answer to this post is yes.
[This message has been edited by its300zx (edited May 03, 2005).]
I raced against Bob in that car. Or I should say I was in the same race (if you can call it that). Bob was at the pointy end of the field challenging for the overall win (against an ITS 300ZX). I was at the other end of the grid working my way forward (no Q time due to an official screw-up sending half of us to the garage in the middle of qualifying).
Bob and that car were mighty fast that day. My family was there and after the race they didn't say anything about my race, but kept telling me I should have seen the race up front. Gee.... Thanks. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
Here is what you don't have...Facts to back any if this up. Pulling a GSR is not facts it happens when good drivers get better exits. Oh and before you ask the answer is yes. I have driven and built the SOHC engine from IT spec to GT3 specs. Here is where you can't get there with you lack of facts. The stock piston even the 89 is a flatop. The stock combustion chamber is 72CC's do the math. 12:1 would require a domed piston which would be way to obvious even look through a plug hole. The ITA motor breaths through an MAF meter that is 1.7 inches across that is what is the HP limiter. And just because someone disagree's with you based on a lack of facts does not make them a hater. So really the only one talkin shit here is the one that spouts crap based on rumor and things somebody told them.Quote:
Originally posted by its300zx:
How many people here have seen that car run??? How many people here have ever driven an soch s13? seriously people. Bob stretch is a badass. I am not doubting that. Not for one milisecond. I just have heard from many that he got busted in atlanta. And That i heard that he was running 12:0 makes totals sense.
Again I drive a HIGHLY modded s13 on the street. An ITA SOHC s13 SHOULD NOT BE THAT FAST. I would not call him out as a cheater right out if I just guessed it. Many competetors from the race in ATL told me of this story. He supposedly hit the brakes at the end so he would not finish first.
Its not like Im making this shit up people.
Im happy that a 240z pulled him in the straights.. Because a 96 integra gsr that dyno'd 173hp at the wheels did not pull him.... Hrmm
that just seems kind of weird to me.
Dont try to talk shit about 240sx's to me
KA24E'S DO NOT PUT OUT THAT MUCH POWER
at least not in the legal ITA sense.
An s13 with a 100% legal ita motor
will not pull an its gsr integra making 173hp at the wheels in the straights like bob did.
You haters can talk shit all you want.
I never bashed bob. I gave him 100% respect in his driving ablility.
All I am saying is that his car was faster than physically possible according to Improved touring rules.
Again you doubters/sackriders out there can doubt me, but I dont really care.
The original post was questioning whether or not the s13 was competetive or not....
It is. It is cheap to build. (my street s13 could wreck shop on a proper racetrack)
The answer to this post is yes.
[This message has been edited by its300zx (edited May 03, 2005).]
Back to the subject. Yes if you are willing to do the work and drive it well you too can be accused of being a cheater by those that aren't or can't...
Joe
its300zx,
We are still waiting for some proof of Bob's illegal engine. I'm sure David would especially like to know, since he now owns that car. The only proof offered so far has been:
"I just have heard from many, I heard that he was running 12:0 & He supposedly hit the brakes at the end so he would not finish first"
None of this proves anything, other than that we racers like to gossip.
Before you completely disregard me as a "hater", do some research. I have been involved with 240's on this forum for almost 5 years. I have raced a S13 for that time, until a little over a year ago. I know what my car dyno'ed at. I know that it had more torque than my friends GSR. And it was less developed than Bob's car.
Do you know what gains are to be had by investing countless hours in dyno time to tweak your Motec, so that every adjustable parameter is perfectly optimized and every measured point? Do you know what the gains are from a header and exhaust system completed computer modeled-Primary size, step length and diameter, collector design and placement? The exhaust on that car was not cheap. Do you know how much is to be gained by optimizing the port matching, by doing it on a flow bench? with the intake and or header installed? Do you know how much faster the dcar/driver combination is when they spend 30 weekends together on track per year? I can believe that if I had been able to invest (time and money) in the performance of my car and driver, we would have been substantially faster.
I bet Joe Harlan knows more than a little about these gains also. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif
Combine all of those things, into a package that is at least 170 lbs lighter than ITS GSR. My friends GSR is still a little overweight, and he complains that he wishes he had better brakes. Put it all together, and I do not doubt that a well driven, well prepped ITA 240 could beat up on a 170 hp, 125 lb-ft GSR.
Until there is proof (where, when, what parts) nobody should post someone as a cheater. Someday, it might be you running up front and being accused of cheating because they can't catch you.
Jim Cohen
[This message has been edited by ITA240 (edited May 03, 2005).]
Here are the facts:
The SM Miata I drove WAS illegal, but it wasnt any 12:1 motor. The measurements were all within spec in regards to deck ht, cylinder head ht, etc. Compression was over because of a "stacked tolerance" effect. Take everything to the edge and collectively you'll be over. This was an oversight on the builder's behalf, and I regret it as does the builder. I have NO desire to win in an illegal car, in any series, at any time. I have said to everyone who has ever asked that had I known I would not have run the car. It's not a win if the car is illegal, and I race to win. Also keep in mind I have been going to the ARRC since 96, so obviously I knew the motor was coming apart after the race if I won. It's that simple.
As for the 240.
"No way the car is legal"
That is flat untrue. The car has been torn down on 4 different occasions, passing every time. I can tell you I have beat Vipers, Porsches, Vettes, and all sorts of cars because those cars are not hooked up in the corners and the drivers of the above mentioned cars could benefit from a little more track time.
What people don't know is that my 240 had a lot of time and development in it, and I had a LOT of seat time. Running a WC program and running some SM events helps my driving skill as well.
I would also ask people to consider this:
Our World Challenge BMW ran faster at Sebring this year than it did last year. BUT, this year it had a 30% restrictor. Otherwise, everything else is the same, same pistons, head, intake, exhaust, computer, everything. We're going fast because we are tweaking the car, not cheating.
The 240 had better cornering speed than any other car I have ever raced it against. That's not to say it or I am better than everyone else. I am only pointing out that the car has higher cornering speeds. Those cornering speeds are extremely difficult to overcome in a car with slower corner speed but higher horsepower. That's why Miatas do well!!
Bob, yeah but per the topic are the cars competitive? http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif j/k
Ed.
ITA 240SX
[This message has been edited by turboICE (edited May 03, 2005).]
As per topic, yeah, they are competitive.
And, by the way, I never had to "brake" to keep from winning the ARRC. In fact, I had to drive my ass off to get the 2nd! The Acura was FAST!! (Must be cheating, right?? LOL)
NM, enough has been said...
Jim
(edit to delete entire post)
[This message has been edited by ITA240 (edited May 03, 2005).]
I might be able to coax that Acura driver into this thread. Hmmm...maybe not.Quote:
Originally posted by fixrim:
As per topic, yeah, they are competitive.
And, by the way, I never had to "brake" to keep from winning the ARRC. In fact, I had to drive my ass off to get the 2nd! The Acura was FAST!! (Must be cheating, right?? LOL)
Thanks for posting, Bob.
Hey, my competitive 240sx will be at Lime Rock Park this weekend. I qualified 2nd at NHIS 3 weeks ago and finished 3rd (out of about 20 ITA cars).
Jeremy
How do the S ones do?
I like the cars a lot, always have, and would love to drive one at some point. It is on my short list of ITS cars to build if the JH won't do anything in ITS after some development.
I never heard anything but praise for Bob's old car (ITA 240 right, or my first question has been answered) and never heard rumors about it being illegal. To make a car fast in IT requires a lot more than ordering parts out of a tuner magazine and that car obviously has the sweat equity in it.
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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey ITS
1/2 a 260Z ITS
[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited May 03, 2005).]
My 1995 240sx (s14 chassis) sat on the pole at Savannah this weekend on Saturday and battled for the lead before the e36 moron knocked me off in the deep sand on lap 3. Sunday I ran 2nd most of race but finished 3rd after almost crashing off the carousel. The car is very competitive though to answer your question. It's also maybe for sale if anyone is interested. Time for racing is getting increasingly shorter with new baby and household duties right now!
I don't think the ITS 240SX is quite as competitive as the ITA, but I don't know if anyone has developed it as much as the ITA ones. I think it would be fun to try and develop it to the fullest if that's what you want. That was just a little more than I wanted to tackle.
BTW, Bob gave me the dyno sheet for the engine currently in the 240. I was not worried about it being illegal. Now all I have to do is figure out how to get my cornering speed up and use the car to its max. What's that mantra....oh yeah...practice, practice, practice.
Good to hear from you Bob. Missed you at the Touring car race in Atlanta.
David
Guys here is my opinion:
First let me say that I have ran a 240 in ITA for several years. And yes, they are very competitive. Why some people want to slam others when they don't know what they are talking about is beyond me. Maybe I don't really have a right to even comment here because I have made the decision to go national racing with my - what - yes , 240SX in E Production!
But anyway, I can say this with a clear conscience - it takes ALOT OF WORK and VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO DETAIL to win at ANY TYPE OF RACING. Some want to just simply put a car together and expect to win, while others want to constantly better themselves and enjoy the fruits of their labor. My guess is that very few build a car and win right away and I doubt seriously that any one in this post - no matter who - did that the first time out. Yes , true some are better drivers and have more budgets than some but I'm sorry, - Isn't that life?
Most of you are great - the others - WHO CARES?
Found this thread a month late, but it's a good one.
Regarding the 240SX in ITS, there is one in the sediv that has been running for some time. But unfortunately, it looks like it still needs a little more speed to run with the top two or three S cars. As for ITA, Bob has certainly shown what it can do when it's setup right and driven very well. I've seen that car get torn down several times and always found to be legal. I've also followed that car around on a few occasions and can certainly say that most of its speed definitely comes from braking and especially how much speed he's carrying in the corners. At last year's ARRC after getting a good draft he passed me (driving an Integra) at the end of the backstraight and into the braking zone. In the same race I also swapped positions back and forth with a yellow CRX that one time passed me on the backstraight before the corner station in T9. This was considerably earlier than the 240 and shows just how much the small CRX benefits from drafting a bigger car. It’s also the same way the winning Integra drafted by Bob's 240 in the race to take the lead. Bob's 240SX is certainly has a good motor, but from my point of view at least it was not the fastest car down the straights last year.
David, I haven't seen you since the weekend in Feb. Hope everything is OK and hope to see you out there again soon. It's a shame not to be running that car. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif Bob, any future plans for another IT car, or you're done for a while?
------------------
Alex
#84 ITA
Been busy doing things like working on my trailer. I just pretty much threw everything in for the Feb race since I only live 40 mins away from Road Atlanta. I had only picked up the car (and trailer as well) in the middle of January so the Feb race was kinda hectic for me. I'm still in the "start-up" phase and I'm trying to get a little more organized before the next race. I'll be at Roebling July 9-10 and Road Atlanta a couple weeks later. I've got a couple more races I'm going to try and make including the race at AMS and the ARRC.
It's interesting that you mentioned brakes. Bob said that was one of the areas he thought could be improved on the car. He said he never really found a pad he liked. The car also doesn't have the larger ABS rotors (not that it matters at the moment as I'm not using all the brakes anyways).
Look forward to seeing you again.
David
ITA 240SX
Well if there is room for improvement, then all the better. I mentioned the brakes as being good because Bob regularly went in quite deep in every turn, even in practice sessions. So I assumed he had strong brakes.
See ya there, and perhaps at AMS as well.Quote:
Originally posted by DavidM:
Road Atlanta a couple weeks later. I've got a couple more races I'm going to try and make including the race at AMS and the ARRC.
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Alex
#84 ITA