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Still looking for a tow vehicle.
I am thinking about going with a ford E 250 or 350 van, but have some questions.
Are all the ford vans 2wd or can they be had in 4wd?
How is the gas milage in a van on the HWY? It just doesn't seem to aerodynamic. But at the same time it looks like a van would have an aero advantage over a pickup, if both vehicles were pulling a 24' enclosed it would seem to me that the van would do better.
Any help is appreciated.
What I liked about a van was the ability to toss stuff in and lock it up.
My wife liked the fact that the passenger was not restricted to her seat but could walk around or lay down and take a nap.
We still use a mini-van for long trips for just that reason.
I tow a 24' enclosed trailer with a SpecMiata in it. I tow with a Ram 2500 turbo desiel with the towing package, and it's great. There are a few basic issues you want to worry about:
1. Will it stop well? This is the biggest one. Most people worry "will it go good" but when you want to STOP, you need good brakes...my Ram is definaltly up to it. 4 wheel disc antilock brakes with upgraded pads and properly balanced trailer brakes are great.
2. Tongue weight? Will your tow vehicle be able to handle the stress of a long tow with that tongue weight? Do you need to do anything to the rear suspension to prop it up?
3. Transmission? Does it have an oil cooler? Is the tranny up to pulling this thing? all the motor in the world won't do a bit of good if your tranny slips and fails.
4. Gas mileage...the desiel is great, but I hear good things about the bigger gas motors, with modern computerized injection, I hear that they get decent gas mileage.
I am fairly sure that towing might be just as dangerous as racing, please keep this in mind when you think about a tow vehicle. Personally, I found that when I towed the loaded 24' trailer behind my buddies F150 i was less than impressed at the stopping and balance. The larger size seems to have cured that.
Also, make sure you get the correct drop hitch, brakeaway battery, etc in good working order...you DON'T want to ruin your nice racecar while it is sitting in the trailer.
Eric
NER SM #12
Are all the ford vans 2wd or can they be had in 4wd?
How is the gas milage in a van on the HWY? It just doesn't seem to aerodynamic. But at the same time it looks like a van would have an aero advantage over a pickup, if both vehicles were pulling a 24' enclosed it would seem to me that the van would do better.
Any help is appreciated.
The Vans can be found in 4WD.
Arguably, a van will get better gas mileage than a regular truck towing an enclosed since the air will have a continuous path over the tow vehicle onto the trailer. I know that when I towed with my 'Burb, I got better mileage with a wing placed about mid-way on the body. The Excursion sits higher than the trailer so the wing didnt seem to make a difference and I no longer even mess with it. A cap on the truck would seem to have the same effect.
Other than carrying fuel jugs to the track, I've never had issue with placing stuff inside the Excursion. Well, I'll take that back; my wife left a banana inside the closed vehicle all day and it took forever to suppress that smell. Luckily with the enclosed, you can chose which vehicle to store a particular item in. Our standard is whether you will need the item at the track(trailer) or the motel(Exc).
You do get funny looks at the junkyards when you pull up in leather lined SUV to pick up engine, trans or other part. I treat it as a work truck from the 2nd seat back.
You can special-order a 4wd Ford van thru your friendly neighborhood Ford dealer. It's known to gearheads as a "Quigley conversion". Ford sends the chassis off to Quigley in Pennsylvania, they swap out the front suspension, add a Dana axle and a transfer case, and deliver it to the Ford dealer. Ford factory warrantee covers the conversion. It's slicker than shit, and you get an awesome 4wd van.Quote:
Originally posted by 0100:
Are all the ford vans 2wd or can they be had in 4wd?
It's also expensive. Add $8-10K to the price of the van for the Quigley conversion. I've purchased several of them in vans we were having built for work, and the 4wd price is sorta insignificant in a $200K vehicle, but I don't know if I'd do it with a personal vehicle used for towing. It does raise the chassis height 4-6", and as the CG of a van is kinda high anyway, I don't know how it would be to tow with.
If you're pulling a 24' enclosed, you NEED a 1 ton, regardless of van or pickup. Brakes, brakes and brakes. 3/4 ton won't cut it.
Short version: Vans are great. Used to tow with a 1 ton diesel van, before I went to a dually. I still miss the interior room in the van, which is even more important if you're pulling an open trailer. The only problem with vans is that if you have an accident....you arrive at the accident scene waaaay too soon.
I tow a 20' enclosed trailer/Spec Miata with a 1997 Ford E350 V10 van, and it's a great combination. In doing my research, I found that vans were typically 50-60% of the cost of a comparable used pickup (year/mileage/size/engine/options). I guess they're not very sexy, and therefore aren't that attractive on the used vehicle market.
Get a 1-ton (E350/3500) and a load-equalizing hitch and you'll be fine. Where the pickups have a disctinct advantage is with dual rear wheel options and gooseneck/5th wheel hitches. A gooseneck trailer on a dually is a dream to tow. For tag trailers, I don't think the van gives up much/any performance, and it's a whole lot cheaper to buy. You can even get the Fords with a Powerstroke diesel if you look hard/long enough.
Just be smart in what you put in the van versus the trailer so you don't have to smell/listen to it for the whole trip.
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Scott Webb
WebbRacing.com
I don't think it's legal to make your kids ride in the trailer.Quote:
Originally posted by Scott Webb:
Just be smart in what you put in the van versus the trailer so you don't have to smell/listen to it for the whole trip.
If you have a small car (like my Sprite) and a StepVan, here's a solution (The Sprite *is* a bit smelly sometimes......Solution: slide the doors back!):
http://www.ccm.edu/engtech/sprite_512.jpg
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www.npmccabe.org
http://www.kenbeard.com/hhc03/thumbnails/HHC03_2411.jpg
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How is the gas milage in a van on the HWY?[/QUOTE]
Count this as another vote for the van. Great place to hang out when it rains. I don't even bother with our Easyup anymore.
Our 2000 diesel E350 gets 11-13mpg while pulling a 24ft enclosed trailer, 18-19 mpg with no trailer. Goto http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads...at=&Board=UBB12 if you have more questions.
Jeff
My 1993 non-turbo diesel E-350 gets 13mpg pulling a 4000-pound (gross) open trailer and about 1000 pounds of "stuff" inside. I don't use it without the trailer (instead choosing to drive the 1984 Rabbit turbodiesel at 45+mpg...)
[This message has been edited by grega (edited March 02, 2004).]
Those of us that don't have 84 turbo diesel Rabbits need a liitle more help to makes us cool, so I went with an F150 Super Crew as my tow vehicle (open trailer, 2,300lbs car)and everyday driver. It gets 14mpg, 14 on the highway, 14 in traffic, 14 if I drive slow and 14 if I drive fast. I think the GMs do better on milage and power......
Benefits of a truck: (besides being cooler)
- Dump runs are easy
- Pick up a load of mulch
- Put smelly, wet dogs
- Put smelly, wet kids
- Put smelly, wet wife (just kidding on this one, I usually make her walk when she gets wet and smelly)
- Did I mention they are cooler??
- Easier backing to the trailer hitch.
- A back window for your gun rack
- and, they're cooler..........
The problem with a pick-up is that all of your friends will think you're a moving company and a pro landscaper.
But yeah, I definately agree with the choice of a pick-up for all around use. I love to drive my Tundra - honestly don't think I would say the same about a van. The van is probably better if strictly for racing (locking stuff up like others said).
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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
The bright side is that once you start racing, you become a 'social pariah' among your old, annoying, favor-grubbing friends, and they will have nothing to do with you anymore.Quote:
Originally posted by gran racing:
The problem with a pick-up is that all of your friends will think you're a moving company and a pro landscaper.
Your 'new' friends (i.e. your somewhat unusual racing friends) already own trucks and trailers and stuff. They don't need any help moving stuff, and they always have beer.
It really comes down to the van you get. My E-150 has no problem making dump runs. It holds more than the F-350 pickup that a friend borrowed to help her move, including the queen size mattress and box spring vertically. And, it keeps you dry when it rains. Plus, if you work it right, the back seat becomes a full size bed, the cooler holds the 13" TV/VCR at the right height, and the van stereo system becomes the surround sound. Pull the curtains and it is a living room on wheels!
However, it is not a motorhome. While you can move around in it, unless you are Ben's height, you will walk around all hunched over (sorry Ben, had to take the shot!). The only thing my van can't do is haul a fifth wheel.
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
And when you open the door, funny smellin' smoke billows aout, you're wearing tie-dye, and your sideburns are really long and pointy!Quote:
Originally posted by planet6racing:
....... And, it keeps you dry when it rains. Plus, if you work it right, the back seat becomes a full size bed, the cooler holds the 13" TV/VCR at the right height, and the van stereo system becomes the surround sound. Pull the curtains and it is a living room on wheels!.....
And you can put the "Don't laugh, your daughter might be inside" sticker on it and really become a social misfit!
Just kidding, I had an old Dodge van that could have used that sticker to cover the rust! Would have had to be a BIG sticker!
Vans are OK, but they don't drive so well, and never, Never, NEVER spill gear oil inside!
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
I'll take my big Dodge conversion van any day. Tows Great, holds all the stuff securely, has seats (comfy capitans chairs) for the whole crew, and sleeps four easy. When I get finished with the sun deck I want to install on the roof, it will be the ultimate race beast. Sun deck will have provisions for the cooler, hibachie, and large patio umbrella. And a place to put the tires and gear oil, Hauling, crewing, and watching.
Russ Myers
Jake - I freakn' love it. Thanks for the laugh.
I guess it also depends on the pick-up you're talking about. Funny thing, my wife and I (well, she made me) sold my Mits. 3000GT and Jeep Wrangler this past summer to consolidate and get a tow vehicle. As stated above, I decided to go with a pick-up. BUT...it does definately matter which pick-up you're talking about.
Let's put it this way - I absolutely loved my 3000gt. We flew a down to Fl (from CT) and drove it home. It was in excellent condition, tinted windows (hey, it was a FL car), custom exhaust (be quite jake # 2), ect. I thought I would really, really miss the car and Jeep. Ummm. Nope. Maybe a little bit, but LOVE the truck. A header, exhaust later and I'm lovin' it. Can you do that with a van? Even the ricers don't do that.
A van is a van. A pick up truck has more potential. Besides, how often do you use the vehicle for racing? (again, credit to Jake #2) What? 10 times a year? So, say 20 days total. What about the other 345 days in the year?
Side topic - being the cool racer that I am, some people came over to look at my race car during a race. Then they asked if it was a Toyota.?? They were looking at my truck? Didn't even care about my car. Oh well.
Yes, vans can be nice and have some benefits that a truck doesn't have. But overall I honestly can't begin to compare the car for its overall use and potential. Of course, this is just my opinion. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
I still like the chevy suburban. If I could afford it I would trade my 94 in for a 2000. And if I had a lot of money I would get a Powerstroke Ford Excursion.
Hey, but that's just me.
Drive well.
The other 345 days of the year the thing drinks too damn much gas. So, it sits in the driveway and I drive the Sentra or the Merc Sable, or the Escort, or the 280-Z, or the...well, you get the picture. My whole fleet combined dosen't drink as much petrol as the V-8 powered B-2500 Ram Van.
Russ
I'll put another vote in for the p/u. However, if I didn't need it for work, and could have a dedicated tow vehicle, it would probably be a nice 'burban. Went from NJ to Road America last year for the June Sprints in a friend's 454 Vortec Suburban, pulling a 24' trailer. There were 3 of us in the truck, and even w/ all our gear, there was plenty of room for one person to stretch out and sleep in the back. It towed great, was comfy as hell, and could pass just about everything but a gas station. We averaged ~6.5 - 7 mpg. The other nice thing about a 'burban, is that if you put all the seats in, you can haul 6-7 people around in reasonable comfort.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
this discussion can cause about the same controversy as discussing college football or someone's wife. We all have our favorite tow vehicle and the various reasons that it works best for us. My wife would turn up her nose at a truck but will drive the Excursion, Suburban or Expedition any day(to name my last 3 tow vehicle) Her reason: SUV's are cool. Even the neice and nephew would rather us pick them up at school in the BIG TRUCK as either of the Miata's in the garage. Go figure. All I know is that if your significant other likes your tow vehicle, it is one less fight. And you can keep something else around to drive on daily basis.
Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
I'll put another vote in for the p/u. However, if I didn't need it for work, and could have a dedicated tow vehicle, it would probably be a nice 'burban. Went from NJ to Road America last year for the June Sprints in a friend's 454 Vortec Suburban, pulling a 24' trailer. There were 3 of us in the truck, and even w/ all our gear, there was plenty of room for one person to stretch out and sleep in the back. It towed great, was comfy as hell, and could pass just about everything but a gas station. We averaged ~6.5 - 7 mpg. The other nice thing about a 'burban, is that if you put all the seats in, you can haul 6-7 people around in reasonable comfort.
Amen Brother! I towed my Honda on an open trailer for years with my Dakota. Typical tow was 100 miles round trip to Blackhawk or Road America. Not too bad if I took it easy. A bit of a white knuckler if I went thru Chicago to Gratten or Mid-Ohio.
Picked up an '89 Suburban with the big block with 96K miles. Guy I bought it from was a friend who owned it four years and he only put 10K miles on it. He only used it to tow his fishing boat. I took out the rear seat for space for tools/parts/tires. I took it down to Sebring from Wisconsin (3k miles) in January for the National. Hills? No problem. Winning drag races out of toll booths? No problem. Gas mileage was 10-11 which is only 2 mpg less than what I got with my V6 Dakota. It is so comfortable towing. You don't even know the trailer is back there. I used to get very tired towing with the Dakota on trips longer than 4 hours. I put in 12-14 hour days with the 'burb and felt fine. Best damn tow rig ever! Paid $2500 for it!
[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited March 04, 2004).]
Well I think I am going to go with a van. I found a 96 E350 EXT Cargo VAN auto powerstroke diesel 2wd with 130k for 5500. F350s with the same specs are much much more. I am just worried about the gas milage in a van. Had a jeep which has no aero, it's like driving a brick wall down the HWY, and the milage sucked. Just worried a Van will be the same, but econo ford vans don't seem to bad aero wise.
This will be for towing the race car only the rest of the year it will sit behind the garage, except for the occasional runs to the depot or dump.
My other option was to trade my wifes new car in for an SUV. You guys may remmember that thread I started. I was thinking about the durango or armada.
I think the van is for atleast me the better option.
And the cool thing about vans kept behinfd the garage between races is the extra storage afforded!
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]