There was a big discussion ( uproar ) recently about Chet Wittel's lap times of 2:12.954 at VIR in his Bimmer. Does anyone know what kind of times he ran in his Z car?
Steve
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There was a big discussion ( uproar ) recently about Chet Wittel's lap times of 2:12.954 at VIR in his Bimmer. Does anyone know what kind of times he ran in his Z car?
Steve
HI Steve,
If I'm not mistaken Chet was mid to high 2:15s in the "orange" car. With all the talk about the 325s, lets not forget the driver in this case is big part of the overall time. Great comparison to look at. well prepped Z versus, well prepped 325, same driver.....3 seconds.
"I propose 250 pound spare tire insert".
David Spillman
There was a big discussion ( uproar ) recently about Chet Wittel's lap times of 2:12.954 at VIR in his Bimmer. Does anyone know what kind of times he ran in his Z car?
Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
I found a 2:16.9 by Chet SARRC/MARRS in 02.
You guys going to be at CMP this weekend?
Before you decide, take a look at the following website; http://www.ih2000.net/ira/bmt-wth.htmQuote:
Originally posted by JeffYoung:
...You guys going to be at CMP this weekend?
Tropical Storm/Depression Bonnie is scheduled to pass through the Carolinas Friday morning, and then Tropical Storm Charley is due around dawn on Saturday.
Pack your rain tires!!! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif
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Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)
When the green was dropped on this years MARRS/SARRC I was told that Whittel's car had us(the rest of the field) by eleven car lenghts by turn one. Thats not driving expertise, thats just horsepower. I wonder why none of the other BMW's are not so dominant????
Jeff, Its been a while, but I think in qualifing was in the mid-high 2:15
Tankwasher:
[When the green was dropped on this years MARRS/SARRC I was told that Whittel's car had us(the rest of the field) by eleven car lenghts by turn one. Thats not driving expertise, thats just horsepower. I wonder why none of the other BMW's are not so dominant????]
Tankwasher,
There are only 3-4 "built to the max" 325s out there that I'm aware of. York,Stubbs,Whittle,Stepp,and Seths old car
Stubbs could pull my old car 10-15 car lengths lap after lap at road atlanta last year.
As far as Chet is concerned
Hate to sound like a cheerleader, but the guy can drive...
Honestly, I feel that over the past couple of years, the fast 325s have made it a point to not be as dominant as is possible.
Find me an extra 10-15 car lengths, and I to could be fast
david spillman
[This message has been edited by dspillrat (edited August 11, 2004).]
Thanks... I just wanted to throw that out for my own comparison. My new Z got down to the 2:19's last weekend and I think there is more to be found in the driver and maybe the car as well, but I'm still a long way away from the "Orange" cars.
David, did you go to Sebring last weekend?
Jeff... I can't go to CMP because of training for the new job, but if it doesn't flood Bryan might come down to watch.
Steve
[quote]Originally posted by Parrish57:
[B]Thanks... I just wanted to throw that out for my own comparison. My new Z got down to the 2:19's last weekend David,
you go to Sebring last weekend?
Sorry for the 325 mini bash.
I'm still a front spoiler,duct work and hood from being ready to race...this tropical huricane causes concern as well.
2:19s is getting there,in a hurry, not bad for a rusty car racer........
david
David, that silver Z is fast and pretty, and getting faster. If 2:16s are possible, and they may be, then most of the BMWs will hae something to worry about, especially if there are two rust racers (red and silver) at teh front.
My rust racer is still being held back by the anchor known as "driver".......
How much hp does a 325 have in IT trim? I went up to the VIR race this weekend to take a look at cars and check out prep since seeing cars allows me to quickly determine what must be done. Saw a lot of nice ones, but didn't see any BMWs that I can recall and I was hoping to just to see what prep work on them involved.
As a newbie it is always interesting to see what the approximate end result in hp for particular cars is knowing what the starting place is. How about the sencond generation RX7s (13B maybe? I've forgotten it has been so long).
Thanks,
[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited August 12, 2004).]
Hmmm...Depends...on whom ya ask.
190-210 RWHP car owner.....230-245 if you have to race against em..closely guarded secret
[quote]Originally posted by rlearp:
[B]How much hp does a 325 have in IT trim?
As
Jeff, the rusty comment was directed to the driver, not the car. I haven't had the chance to see the silver beauty yet.
David Spillman
Guys, not inviting a flame war here, but just throwing out for Ron some numbers I have heard. All numbers are IT trim, at the crank:
325i: 235-240
13B RX7: 190-200
240Z: 180-190
TR8: 170-180
Alfa Milano, Acura GSR and 190E I don't know, but I do know "Irish Mike's" 190E is fast, as is the silver Milano Verde the Butler's, as are some of the GSRs.
Maybe I missed something, flame war? I hope not, just curious on hp specs.
230-245 is pretty stout for a motor rated at 189 factory, but I'm not that familar with BMWs. Just surpised to see a gain of that much with exhaust and fuel/timing mapping. For a naturally asprirated car that is a stout jump.
I don't feel that I'll be able to get the JH much over 140-150. Stock rating was 140, but that was not the US Federal rating, which I'm told is more like 125 or so but not published.
I suppose having a chassis dyno at a SCCA event isn't done? Would be a lot of fun.
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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!
David, I'm laughing, I thought were talking about our cars being old and rusty compared to the BMWs.
Steve certainly appears to be shaking off the rust, having knocked I think what is it Steve, six seconds of his VIR times from March. Awesome.
Ron, didn't direct the flame comment at you, was just trying to avoid the sometimes nasty debate you get on here when you address teh touchy subject of horsepower.
Jeff
Understood on the hp thing, so, I take that as verification that a chassis dyno is not a welcome sight at a IT race? I'll certainly use on to tune my car, as I do with my others, but I won't have to worry much with hp until a couple of seasons since I think I'll be the biggest impediment to fast laptimes, not the motor.
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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!
Here are some real dyno numbers: Top builders...
E36: 220 RWHP (yup, that's OVER 255 crank using 15%)
RX-7: 175 RWHP
If BMW had a 'Mazdacomp', there would be many more! God I loved my 95 E36 M3...dang.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
Hey! Who's calling me and my car RUSTY? That's gotta be worth another second a lap! Just kidding! I knew what David meant. The car was quit literally a rust bucket before the sand blasting. It did clean up nicely if I do say so myself and I greatly appreciate the compliments, Jeff. As for the driver(s), we were very disappointed the first time we took the car to VIR but it was just a combo of rusty drivers and new car bugs. I'm just about where I was with the old white car at it's peak. Here's to hoping that the silver bullit hasn't peaked yet!
Steve
That is dang impressive, 255 at the crank from 2.5L with no head/cam work and only 0.5 increase in compression, it is phenomenal. Whoever is doing this needs to sell it to folks on the BMW forums, they'll get rich quick.Quote:
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
Here are some real dyno numbers: Top builders...
E36: 220 RWHP (yup, that's OVER 255 crank using 15%)
RX-7: 175 RWHP
Edit - after kicking around on the BMW forums and verifying what I thought, folks aren't getting that sort of rear wheel hp from their E36 M3s at 3.2L and variable valve timing. I've got a E36 M3, but haven't dynoed it since I use it as a daily driver.
I sort of figured the RX7 would be about where it is as they really can open up with some exhaust work allowing it to sing (relative term here as I think they are a nasty sounding motor at speed, sorry).
Thanks for the info Andy, I enjoying seeing where folks are in development.
[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited August 12, 2004).]
I'm inferring that you think they're cheating to get that kind of horsepower? Frankly, I'd wager they're not. Consider several factors:
- These engines are being built by professional race builders, like Rebello. Not a garage rebuild...
- The engine in those BMWs has gone through INCREDIBLE amounts of development for many professional series over the years, from World Challenge to FIA. It's a hell of a base design.
- The ones that are making that kind of power are running Motec engine management systems, the same systems used by most professional race teams. These systems have been modified/designed to fit in the factory ECU box using the factory unmodified wiring harness. This ain't no plug-in Superchips, baby...
- The headers and exhaust systems on these engines are tuned works of art, some using stepped airflow technology. Not a bolt-on back-of-a-magazine header.
- Simply put, they've spent a lot of money and done a lot of development and homework to get there. It's very impressive from a techie/geek side of things.
However, if these guys are cheating then they're all fools for doing so: building cars up to that level of performance will absolutely result in them getting b-slapped with extra weight. And if they've been "holding back" to not super-out-perform the lesser competition then that will go to the wayside as more of them enter the fray and they HAVE to step it up. Ultimately, I see the cars being reigned in long-term.
If you want to get mad at someone, get mad at the ITAC, Comp Board, and SCCA for not having the foresight to see the development ability in that car, a car that - in hindsight - probably should not have been classified in ITS to begin with. However, what's done is done, so don't get mad at the competitors themselves for taking advantage of it, simply envy them and ask for performance compensation from the SCCA.
Me? I'm glad they're moving my car to ITA (fingers crossed...)!
Greg Amy
#3 ITS Nissan NX2000
All of 135 *F*WHP
http://www.kakashiracing.com
Ed York and Sam Asiningo(sp?) do the same thing to the entire ITS field at Summit Point every race. 1 lap, and they have up to 5 or more second lead.
Most of the mid pack cars get lapped not once, but twice in a 16 lap race.
York has dropped the ITS lap record at Summit from the 1:28's to the high 1:24's in the past few years.
No car besides an E36 has won a race at SP since 2000.
Funny how the E-36 was put in ITS, yet, the Z32 300ZX with 222 stock HP (and more weight)has been denied repeatedly.
Rumor has it that York has been asking his "competitors" to petition the CB to move the E-36 to E/P so he can have soe competition. No one in regional E/P wants the car, as it is already running lap times that would put it in the top 3 while still in ITS trim.
Used to have up to 25 cars in ITS, Rx-7's, 240-260-280 and 280ZX's, 944's and E-30s in years gone by with great competition and near equality between makes. Now the field is nearly all E-36's with most of the other cars gathering dust in drivers garages. Pretty sad if you ask me....
Since when did IT "require" you to spend so much just to stay on the same lap as the leader so you can actually get your money's worth. Mid pack cars now spend the same amount as the leaders on entry fees to run 2 less laps every weekend.
Run 8 races in the MARRS series in a mid pack car( which aren't all that cheap to compete with either), you end up paying for 16 laps you never got a chance to run.
NO car other than the E-36 has run a sub 1:26 lap at Summit yet, although the one Integra has come close.
[This message has been edited by 2Many Z's (edited August 12, 2004).]
Greg... I totally agree with the perception that the Bimmers are legal. They don't have to cheat to win. And as for the e36 going to E/P, I think it would dominate there as well. This past weekend at the national at VIR, Grayson Upchurch (Sports Car's second pick to win the Runoffs) won the E/P race with a best lap time of 2:09.9. That's smokin' fast but when compared to Wittel's time of 2;12.9 in an ITS car... well it doesn't take much imagination to see the potential. I'd just as soon see the Bimmers go elswhere and give us back our class.
Whoa, no, I'm new to this, that is, this board and the SCCA. I'm not new to building engines - I have built my own over the last 20 years for cars and bikes and am proud of some of what I've done - 500+ hp NA SB Fords among some of them. I'm familar with Motec engine management systems, fantastic sustems and pricey, as I've had the opportunity to tune two of them in GT40s I've help build.Quote:
Originally posted by grega:
I'm inferring that you think they're cheating to get that kind of horsepower? Frankly, I'd wager they're not. Consider several factors:[/URL]
I have a very good understanding for what it takes to make hp and based on my novice eye toward IT motors it just seems like a strong engine to me, nothing more, nothing less. Good design and I like them.
I'm just trying to learn what is common in IT and where different cars stand. The BMWs intrigue me since I have one and wanted to race one, I just didn't have the cash to do it. So, I went for an oddball, the JH, that I can afford and race with sweat equity.
Sorry if my questions stirred up something I don't have a complete history of or do not understand. No offense meant.
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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!
[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited August 12, 2004).]
I suspect all the advantage is because of the open ECU rule. Only two cars in DC region dominate, yet, the rest of the less developed (or cost conscious) E-36 drivers are running far enough behind that the best prepped 240's, Rx7's etc are running similar times and having a good race.
The E-36 would have been better suited to ITE than ITS.
Envy is the correct word for my atitude...No hard feelings.
Restrictors, constrictors, weight and anchors hopefully are in the future.
Seriously, parity will benefit all. Finding it with performance compensations will take time.
David Spillman
Sorry to check in from the North East but in our region the Mazda RX-7s are still the cars to beat. Running on tracks like Lime Rock and NHIS equalize any hp advantage the E-36 might have. At both of those tracks the lap records are still held by someone driving a Mazda(and receltly set). Our cars are developed to the extent of the rules(less Motec) and we don't see any great power advantage other than the uphill at NHIS. I think that different tracks favor different cars. NHIS is like a big autocross course and the Mazda's still hold a big advantage there and Lime Rock is a handling track.
If someone is going to spend $60,000-$80,000 to develop an ITS Super car than they should win. Just because some people dominate in their regions deosn't mean that racing in other regions should suffer. We have great races in the North East Region with the probability of a Mazda winning just as equal as someone in a well prepared E-36.
BTW if anyony has one of those 255hp motors for sale E-mail privately!
Rob Driscoll
The biggest question is why some people feel the need to spend that kind of money to win a Regional only class. More dollars than they have sense?
For what some of these top ITS cars are worth, why not run in Touring, GT, Production etc where you have a better chance of securing sponsorship dollars since you would then have the option of going to the Runoffs and being on national TV? Do they think the pro teams are looking for their next contract driver at a Regional that now doesn't even get the distinction of having the results posted in SportsCar?
IT "used" to be for the "grass roots" racers and "shade tree" mechanics who only raced for the competition, the thrill and the fact they could do it competively without the need to mortgage all their possesions.
[This message has been edited by 2Many Z's (edited August 13, 2004).]
In my opinion, it's all about the shops that build and prep the cars. The business that build/fields winning cars gets more business.
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Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA
If you want to use the phone instead...it will take you two calls. One to Rebello (motor) and one to Bimmerworld (Motec).Quote:
Originally posted by robits325is:
BTW if anyony has one of those 255hp motors for sale E-mail privately!
Rob Driscoll
http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
Andy, it would take most of us 3 calls - w/ the third being to our credit card co. to raise our limit!
i guess i didn't make enough phone calls....
i built a top of the line 325 with a "to the limit" motor done by a(the) top bmw engine builder and it ain't putting out 220 at the rear wheels. more like <200. hmmmm.
Um, because some people can afford an expensive car/part/trailer/tow vehicle with no more pain than you feel with a cheap car/part/trailer/tow vehicle? Sponsorship, professional rides etc. is no more on their radar than yours. Even some rich guys just do it for the fun, competition, and camaraderie. The rules in this class don't limit how much you can spend. Time to get over it.Quote:
Originally posted by 2Many Z's:
The biggest question is why some people feel the need to spend that kind of money to win a Regional only class. More dollars than they have sense?
For what some of these top ITS cars are worth, why not run in Touring, GT, Production etc where you have a better chance of securing sponsorship dollars since you would then have the option of going to the Runoffs and being on national TV? Do they think the pro teams are looking for their next contract driver at a Regional that now doesn't even get the distinction of having the results posted in SportsCar?
[This message has been edited by 2Many Z's (edited August 13, 2004).]
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katman
Please DO NOT and I repeat DO NOT bring reality to this thread or forum regarding the HP potential of the magical E36 M50 motor. How dare you!Quote:
Originally posted by mlytle:
i guess i didn't make enough phone calls....
i built a top of the line 325 with a "to the limit" motor done by a(the) top bmw engine builder and it ain't putting out 220 at the rear wheels. more like <200. hmmmm.
Let me to get this thread back on track with a more typical IT Forum response…
Everybody knows it is possible to get at least 270 HP (maybe more!) at the crank of an E36 2.5 motor by simply switching from a black air filter to a green one. This tweak is common knowledge in the BMW community, just make a few phone calls and tell them you know the secret handshake.
Also, it has recently been verified that some of these IT motors are being put together at BMW’s F1 Motor Facility in Munich, being dyno’ed at WilliamsF1 in England and finally blessed by Frank Williams himself. This is clearly not in the spirit of IT racing! There is even a rumor that Ralf Schumacher will personally perform the first oil change on each engine purchased (at least until he moves to Toyota).
Given these hard facts, the SCCA must add at least 250 pounds to the E36 immediately!
Yeah, that’s the ticket! Now we’re back on track! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
I like the jokes but I am assuming that ya'll with 'built' motors have the following:
Full Rebello build
MOTEC engine management
Tuned by Bimmerworld
I know each of these suppliers/builders isn't without equal but has anyone SEEN Chet's dyno sheets? My info comes from a real powerful E36 and ACTUAL dyno numbers. That team then requests info from BW on how some of the E36's are running the times they are. They answer? Through development and inginuity - another 15whp sinse his build.
Hats off to the builders but until you have done it all, I'm not surprised you don't belive the power numbers.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
oh geez, sorry bruce! forgot to add in the 20hp for the blue airfilter! now i got it! what was i thinking? http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
[This message has been edited by mlytle (edited August 26, 2004).]
is adding motec worth 25 rwhp? that would be the delta i am looking at...
ahhh, more projects for the winter.. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif