I have an 81 Scirocco that has had an engine swap at some point in its life, (has a 1.6 now). Would this run in ITB or ITC?
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I have an 81 Scirocco that has had an engine swap at some point in its life, (has a 1.6 now). Would this run in ITB or ITC?
You'll have to swap a 1.7 back in it and run ITB. Those cars only came w/ 1.7's and you can't 'create' a car.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608
Or run it as is in ITB?
Nope, the 1.6 motor is not spec'd for ITB. The way the car is, you can't really run it in any IT class. And legally, the only way you can run it is put the 1.7 in it and run it in ITB. Now, you could run it as a l-p GP car w/ the 1.7 or a l-p HP car w/ the 1.6, but you'll need a fuel cell and a fire system as well as having to remove the door glass, etc.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608
Run with the 1.6? Reverse cheating...
We ran our Golf II rally car as in DSP at hillclimbs but wanted more competition the third year, so we put a 16v badge on it and leaked the rumor that we had changed the engine. The organizers put us in CSP (where the fun was) but we had to make sure that we nabbed a clueless guy to tech the car. The one we found WAS perfect - he couldn't tell that it wasn't a 16v but asked us probing questions about the braided lines in the FI system. "Are these legal? Hmm?"
Kirk
Wouldn't the 1.7 run as a 'c' car?
Steve
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87 ITB Scirocco
www.geocities.com/highspeedconnectionracing
Nope, the 1.7 is classed in ITB.Quote:
Originally posted by Scirocco#28:
Wouldn't the 1.7 run as a 'c' car?
Steve
Kirk, interesting thought, 'reverse cheating'. First off, it doesn't matter, cause it's the rule (is my ITRN hat on straight??). Second, I think it's generally accepted that you can make more power out of a VW 1.6 than you can out of a 1.7.
And here's another thing about weights. The Mk I Scirocco in ITC weighs 2040#. That's w/ either of the 1.5's or the 1.6. The Mk I Scirocco in ITB w/ the 1.7 weighs 2110#. The Mk II Scirocco in ITB w/ the 1.7 also weighs 2110#, yet the Mk II Scirocco in ITB w/ the 1.8 weighs 2270#! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/eek.gif. All this while the Rabbit w/ the 1.7 in ITB is 2050# and the Rabbit GTI w/ the 1.8 in ITB is 2180# (but the ITC Rabbit w/ the 1.5 or 1.5 is 2000#). Not sure how the Mk I and Mk II Scirocco w/ the 1.7 weigh the same, yet the 1.8 car gains 170#, while the weight gain on the Rabbit going from 1.7 to 1.8 is only 130#. Hmmm, I think Sven's back from vacation....
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608
To further muddle this thread, the back of the logbook show the car to be 1.6 ITC 1980 Scirocco! However, the VIN says it is an 81.
Hmmmm, I wonder why that is? Can't speculate as to what happened there.Quote:
Originally posted by 81Scirocco:
To further muddle this thread, the back of the logbook show the car to be 1.6 ITC 1980 Scirocco! However, the VIN says it is an 81.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608
OK, I can't help myself, I had to post. I believe this falls firmly into the "what the hell does it matter?" category. If the '81 chassis is the same as an '80, and it has the corect combination eng/tranny for an '80, and it has a logbook for ITC... No competetitive advantage due to the fact that it is an '81, right? So run it in ITC. Come up to Summit and beat me if you can. I certainly don't care what year chassis it is, all other things being equal... I know ITRN, flame away...
Gee, where to start? http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gifQuote:
Originally posted by evanwebb:
If the '81 chassis is the same as an '80, and it has the corect combination eng/tranny for an '80, and it has a logbook for ITC... No competetitive advantage due to the fact that it is an '81, right?
How about the additional pages in the ITCS that would be required to define the word "same"?
How about (since you are suggesting that the current up- and back-date rule limitations should be canned) the mix-and-match concept being just super-duper until someone finds a combination of parts across years and models that does result in a "competition advantage" over your current ride?
How big is this ball of worms? Would you like the ITC Honda entrants to have their pick of shells, gearboxes and engines?
Remember that whatever rule gets written (or applied, since that can be a different thing), they need to work across the category and into the future...
Kirk
Quote:
Originally posted by evanwebb:
OK, I can't help myself, I had to post. I believe this falls firmly into the "what the hell does it matter?" category. If the '81 chassis is the same as an '80, and it has the corect combination eng/tranny for an '80, and it has a logbook for ITC... No competetitive advantage due to the fact that it is an '81, right? So run it in ITC. Come up to Summit and beat me if you can. I certainly don't care what year chassis it is, all other things being equal... I know ITRN, flame away...
{takes off ITRN hat}I couldn't agree w/ you more. All the Mk I Scirocco tubs are the same, from '75 - '81. Most have long since returned to the earth. Same thing goes for the '83 - '84 Rabbits. There were 2-dr cars that were built that weren't GTI's, but you can use one of those tubs and make it a GTI because the VIN# has a digit that identifies what engine size it had. Didn't do that on the Golfs ('85 - '92), which I guess is one reason why you can run any year A2 Golf you want and throw all the GTI stuff in it. Because there's nothing in the VIN# that differentiates one from the other. Even though, the later cars came w/ Digifant FI instead of CIS-E.
Other than the 1.8 motor, and some bolt-on stuff (vented rotors, close-ratio tranny, etc.), there's nothing that differentiates an '84 1.7 Rabbit L (or LS) from an '84 GTI. In fact, if you had a stripped '84 2-dr Rabbit tub, w/o looking at the VIN#, there's no way to tell if the car was a GTI or not.
But, as Kirk said, them's the rules!
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608
I am reminded of an early IT GTI that started life as a diesel Rabbit 2-dr. There were different holes punched in the firewall - would this make it "different" or "the same"?
Kirk
Sorry Kirk, I guess I should have clarified that a bit more and said 'any gas 2dr w/ a stick'. Sorry about that.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608
Hey Kirk and Bill:
These discussions are always fun, and also generally pointless. But anyway, I'm just suggesting that the update/backdate rule be generalized somewhat in situations where it makes sense and there is no particular competitive advantage. Or perhaps combine some models on the same line in the ITCS but specify the relevant things, like allow the '81 scricco tub with the 1.6 motor. How is that in principle different from allowing a '69 Volvo 142S that came with the B20B motor, carbs and 9:1 compression to use a '71 B20E motor that used fuel injection and had 10.5:1 compression? In both cases the car is running with a different motor than it had when it came off the showroom floor, but the idea is that since tubs are substantially the same it is essentially the same car.
I know the words "substantially" and "essentially" are imprecise, but the intent is clear. I believe the important thing is to adhere to the "spirit" of the rules: don't do things to your car that give you a competitive advantage in your class if it is not explicitly allowed. On the other hand, as in the scricco case above I personally have no problem with it for the car to run in ITC, and I would welcome the guy to race with me and comgratulate him if he beat me. C'mon, we're out here for fun, right?
Evan,
Maybe you missed the post where I said I agree w/ you (or whoever said essentially the same thing). I think it's dumb, but that's the way the rules are. Do I think it's fair that an '85 Golf can update itself the the more aerodynamic bumpers and the digifant motor (which means you can chip it!) of a '90 or '91 GTI yet I can't take an '84 Rabbit L 2dr and put all of the stuff from an '84 GTI in it and run it as a GTI? Hell no I don't think it's fair, but because of the VIN# rule, that's the way it is.
The CB has seen fit to say that all the A2 platform Golfs are the same car, even though some are 4dr, some came w/ rear drum brakes, and they came w/ a variety of engines, yet you can't swap parts between two different trim level cars of the same year because the VIN# differentiates them. Does that make sense? Hell no it doesn't make sense. But, I can see the same mentality that went into the ECU rule at work here. Since there's supposedly no way to tell the cars apart based on the VIN#, they figure there's nothing they can do to stop it. But that's not entirely true. I believe that all of the late A2 Golfs (90 - 92) came w/ digifant injection instead of CIS-E. Easy enough to differentiate the cars based on years. Note: I'm not an A2 guy, so I don't know if this is correct or not.
I'm sorry you think these discussions are pointless, but if they provide someone w/ some information they can use when contemplating the purchase of a car, then I don't think they're pointless.
I agree that the CB needs to review this and make some changes where it's appropriate.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608
Hey Bill, I did see that you agree with me, I was just "saluting" you and Kirk as the most frequent expounders on this type of subject. So, yes, we are in agreement that the CB needs to do some work on these questions. I was saying that the discussions seem pointless in the sense that the CB doesn't ever actually seem to address these things... BTW, are you going to be at the Labor Day Double at Summit? We haven't met, I'm in the black/yellow ITC scirocco #46... Any other IT forum people who are there stop by, it would fun to associate some faces with "handles". That's assuming that anyone can find anyone once the Summit paddock is full of 14,000 racecars...
Ditto what Bill said. If a rule is stupid, it should be changed but, until that happens, everyone should be able to count on consistent application of the rules - stupid or otherwise.
It is unfortunate but not everyone adheres to your theory ("don't do things to your car that give you a competitive advantage in your class if it is not explicitly allowed"). Some seem to think that we should be allowed to do anything that is not explicitly prohibited and some just cheat, using any number of rationalizations to do so.
Given this, we are stuck with the rules as written.
K
Evan,
I'll be at Summit Point for the Labor Day double. We'll be paddocked back in the woods. Hopefully I'll have my car there, but I've got to find some way to get it there. Also, I need to get my physical redone so I can get my license renewed. That should happen next week. Car's pretty much ready, just have to pass the physical and get the car there. I'll make it a point to look you up. Always like talking to other VW racers.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608
VIN?? Mines never been looked at.
Run the critter in ITC and have a good time. If some one bitches about the digit, let the air out of his girlfriend. MM
Wow, is this a first for this place? Someone that actually advocates cheating! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/eek.gif
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608
Yeah, well what if it's his WIFE who doesn't agree with your plan? http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/mad.gif This kind of attitude always leads me to believe that if your willing to cheat one way, you will cheat in others.Quote:
Originally posted by mogren:
VIN?? Mines never been looked at.
Run the critter in ITC and have a good time. If some one bitches about the digit, let the air out of his girlfriend. MM
You know, that's one thing I like about the Prod board. They all use their real names.
Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers
You said it Lesley!
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608
(reserves comment, since Lesley pretty much covered it)
Hurrah, hurrah, hurrah! for Lesley. You know, we might start to shame some of these folks into a better attitude, yet.
You know, just earlier today someone suggested to me in person that they could make a certain modification so that "...no one would know it was done. It's undetectable." I replied, one person would know it was illegal - you! How could you sleep at night? Would you be satisfied with anything you might win, or would you always have that nagging doubt that you might not have won without the cheat?
I have another acquaintance who simply states that his race is against the rulebook and the scrutineers. When He cheats and gets away with it, he has won. You know, I can actually respect such a straight-forward declaration - as long as he is entering Cheat Wars, the new Fox reality show that pits competitors against inspectors. But, it ain't racing.
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[email protected]
My full name is Mike Ogren , I've run Protech Racing for 20 yrs. I am not renewing my SCCA membership / racing license. for a number of reasons. Mostly because of the lack of rules enforcement here in the South East. The cars in the front are using cams of max lift rules, too much compression, many parts missing
( headlights!). It is a joke.
I have had a Tech guy take off the tech sticker because the SCCA club stickers were not on the car yet. The car was a new build and the sticker lady was not yet at the track!!
When I have run other sanctions, they took me apart very often and I still won a bunch.
I have been punted out of first place by a front runner, in plain veiw of all . What gives?? When I punted or got punted in a circle trak , we go to the rear, as it should be.
I have met a bunch of nice people at the trak and always try to help other guys with parts and or service, always thinking that it goes around and that is how racing should be.
As for the vin # not matching the car engine, but the model is the same. That is a poor reason not to use the 1600.
Dont put a 1600 in a S-2 car tho.
MM
I am really sorry for your experiences, Mike. What you expected (that tech would pursue cheaters) is not the way that SCCA club racing actually works. The system generally expects you and the other competitors to pony up $$ to determine if there are illegal parts in someones car. This is the fundamental problem in a flawed system, I am afraid, but it is so fundamental to the organization that it will never change.
Kirk
Mike,
I am sorry that you are disappointed in SCCA. As has been mentioned, the rules don't always seem to make sense, but they are the rules that we run with. Adherence to the rules is an ethical responsibility that I take seriously. I spend too many $$ paying for Chris' habit; he is addicted to the adrenaline rush, I will admit it openly; to have him DQ'ed due to a rules violation is unacceptable to me. Yes, there are cheaters. Some of them are very flagrant, others just think they are being cute. I have always found it interesting the number of cars local drivers that don't run the ARRC. Or the ones who run the enduro and not the sprint race. Or the ones who suddenly go slower.
But those are issues we deal with. If you let them run you off, they truly have won.
Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers