I am curious as to the real number of cars that can't flash tune or add a chip or even an approved daughter board to their factory ECU. Given these three items I can't think of a Nissan that is not tunable.
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I am curious as to the real number of cars that can't flash tune or add a chip or even an approved daughter board to their factory ECU. Given these three items I can't think of a Nissan that is not tunable.
Joe, good idea....but to facilitate discussion, could you define the term "Appproved mother board"? Thanks.
Well jake If I were re-writing the rule I would require stock ecu. Allow reflash or main process chip or an ad on daugther board that would require the spec and manufacture be approved for use. Easy stuff, I can provide a list of daughter board manufactures for Nissan and toyota. A daughter board is not a different ECU. with an approval system you could limit the function of the chips on the daughter board. but now back on track.
And please note Jake DAUGHTER board. please don't confuse the discussion by saying mother board you know thats a completely different deal.
List of cars
Non of the current Audi's eligable for IT competition have a computer that can be modified or chiped. We have been to SEVERAL tuning companies and offered a small fortune for development, all have come back, sorry their is nothing you can do with this computer. I tend to think they are telling the truth as these cars/motors are still used A LOT in rally cars, whom I would think could bennefit with HP more than we could.
I have no idea about the daughter you speek of... :D
Raymond
Cars Raymond, I have no idea what car are classed that you would be concerned about.
PS for you nissan guys: http://eccs.hybridka.com/ great data source.
ITB 1981 Audi 5+5
ITB 1981 - 1984 Audi Coupe
ITB 1985 - 1987 Audi Coupe GT
ITB 1981 - 1987 Audi 4000
ITA Audi Coupe GT (90% sure that they use the same ECU, but I may be wrong... It was a car that was built for 6 month only ('87.5) and I believe the only difference in the car was the rear disc brakes and the 2.3l motor.)
Hope that helps... I am sure that 40 or so VW's from the 80's are in the same padock... I have no idea what spacific VW cars can or can't be worked with though.
Raymond
The VW A2 with CIS-E is one for the list. However, as an EE of 40 years, I still think there is hope... just harder to do!
'96-'98 BMW Z3 1.9l in ITA
'96-'98 318ti in ITA
'96-'98 318i in ITA
All use Bosch M 5.2 ecu's all on the M-44 engine.
James
ITS MK II Toyota Supra
88-91 Civic DX and std in ITA and ITC. Has dual point injection.
70-76 914 1.7-1.8-2.0 ITC-ITB. 1.7&2.0 have D-jet FI and the 1.8 has L-jet which has an AFM. I was thinking of building one if the ECU rule changes.
Blake Meredith
Blake the open ECU rule will not fix mechanical based injection systems no matter how it is written. The AFM on the L-jet will have to stay in place and function.Quote:
88-91 Civic DX and std in ITA and ITC. Has dual point injection.
70-76 914 1.7-1.8-2.0 ITC-ITB. 1.7&2.0 have D-jet FI and the 1.8 has L-jet which has an AFM. I was thinking of building one if the ECU rule changes.
Blake Meredith
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It is not mechanical it is electronic on the 914.
Blake Meredith
http://www.technosquareinc.com/rom.htmQuote:
ITS MK II Toyota Supra
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http://www.atsracing.net/atstunedrom.htm
I believe these guys can set you up with a daughterbord for that ECU.
1986 & 1987 Honda Prelude si
I believe the Accords of the same vintage also have this issue.
OBDO box I believe is chipable like the nissanQuote:
1986 & 1987 Honda Prelude si
I believe the Accords of the same vintage also have this issue.
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http://forum.pgmfi.org/
We know it's electronic. At this juncture, the revisionists are talking about allowing whatever additional sensors you need to change to a different type of system (Mass airflow vs speed-density) but requiring that your intake air flow through the now unused airflow meter, but WTF, why not just throw all that shit away and mount a big velocity stack to your throttle body!!? (of course you'd make it the bottom of your airfilter housing so noone could accuse you of cheating) That should give you a few more ponies and the new killer advantage! This class is just TOO boring the way it's been all this time. Make my day. phil
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It is not mechanical it is electronic on the 914.
Blake Meredith
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Blake these are an Early L-jet system no? If so there is no reason to think they are not as tunable as any other factory system. This system is run on a lot of good race cars all over the place.
ITB '80-'83 BMW 320i
ITB '84-'86 BMW 318i
Dave I am confused. These are L-jet based cars with mechanical distributer that can be curved like any other and the stock box can be richened and leaned can it not? It's been a couple years since I worked on these older cars every day but I was pretty good with these systems back in the day. MY poin is I think these systems can make the gains with physical adjustment rather than even needing chips.
Correct. Honda OBD0 is chipable, its just not mainstreemQuote:
The 1.8 was the only one that came with L-jet. The 1.7 and 2.0 had the D-jet. Not much adjustment other then fuel pressure. Plus it would be cheaper to run aftermarket EFI then make a 30+ year old system work. Most parts are NLA and good used parts are getting harder to find.
Blake Meredith
James,Quote:
'96-'98 BMW Z3 1.9l in ITA
'96-'98 318ti in ITA
'96-'98 318i in ITA
All use Bosch M 5.2 ecu's all on the M-44 engine.
James
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Why do you say they can't be reflashed?
Josh
Sorry blake but I think this is one of the reasons I would really be against it. The performance change from gang fire to sequential fire would be really big. This is exactly why this stuff belongs in production or GT rather than a complete philosophy change to IT. I know tuning a D-jet system isn't easy but it can be done.Quote:
The 1.8 was the only one that came with L-jet. The 1.7 and 2.0 had the D-jet. Not much adjustment other then fuel pressure. Plus it would be cheaper to run aftermarket EFI then make a 30+ year old system work. Most parts are NLA and good used parts are getting harder to find.
Blake Meredith
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Most OBD2 Hondas until the RSX, 06 Civic, and 06 S2000 have a fixed ROM.
ODB1 conversion (which is chippable) is possible for those ODB2 cars but not for every car under the current rules because the its a different sized case, internal board, and ECU connector type. Honda or Acuras that have OBD1 and OBD2 cars on the same spec line can revert back to OBD1 with update-backdate.
Un-tunable or unable to reach their 'process' potential? Big difference.
Uh Joe, I made a simple mistake. Chill out, theres no conspiracy here. Tell us more on the approval process. Who exactly does it, what do they do and how does the information get distributed and checked?
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And please note Jake DAUGHTER board. please don't confuse the discussion by saying mother board you know thats a completely different deal.
List of cars [/b]
Specs for any add-on board would be submitted to the CRB just like any other approved part. The process to do this is already in place as this is how it is done for the touring catagory. It is clear to me that when people say things aren't tunable that they have not looked at all the options. If it has a a chip it has a program. If a pompass clod like myself can de-solder a chip and solder in a socket then anyone can do it. Look at the technosquare link, they sell Techtom stuff which seems to have the largest Jap car coverage.
To my knowledge every watercooled VW (and most of the older Audis) can be chip tuned, or resistor tuned, or 'mechanically' tuned for fueling. Ignition can be addressed within the current rules.
They cannot all have a nice, wide process window set of optimum maps, but when I race, my motor spends most of the time at WOT and 4k + rpm, so a super wide process window is not needed. I don't worry much about how it runs in the paddock and warmup lap, as long as it keeps running and goes when the green flies.
There are some old 'chipped' CIS-E boxes floating around that a UK company was charging a fortune for, but I think they are NLA.
That said, I do think small gains could be acheived with a programable, fully mapped system. I just would not go there without being at 100% on all other aspects of the powerplant. This is the first year that I have seriously considered converting to a stock electronic injection system and taking advantage of the current rule using Megasquirt or Microsquirt in a California spec. Digifant box. However - I am still not sold on it - my current setup allows me to get the fuel right where I want it, and works well enough to win in a G Production car.
What is available for the 1.8L miata? Anything, only thing I can find is a plug and play replacement ECU.
The BMW m-44 motor in the 318 and Z3 can have a reflash done but it only raises the rev limit to 7K. There is no reflash geared toward performance available.
R
Rob, your saying nobody has done it yet. If they can reflash to raise revs than there is a way to reflash the whole fuel&timing curve.Quote:
The BMW m-44 motor in the 318 and Z3 can have a reflash done but it only raises the rev limit to 7K. There is no reflash geared toward performance available.
R
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Joe, That's exactly what I'm saying. Maybe there's someone you could point me toward to get that done?Quote:
Rob, your saying nobody has done it yet. If they can reflash to raise revs than there is a way to reflash the whole fuel&timing curve.
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R
Look at the same place that is raising rev limits. Ask them if they will do a custom map. If not find out who their programmer is and go into business for yourself. My point is that it's not a case of can't it is a case of hasn't.
http://www.activeautowerke.com/software/main.php
these guys say they do custom race applications.
Joe,
You're assuming that just because one person makes a reflash for limited subset of the Bosch M5.2 ECU then it's tuneable? A Dinan reflash does not a tunable make, acutally I don't think it's a reflash as you need to send the whole ECU in. All this for one size fits all increased rev limit? They don't say what they do if anything to perform their Dinan magic. If it was worth the effort to crack then Jim Conforti would have cracked it, but he offers nothing. There used to be some bb posts on efforts to crack it. When the manufacture places random check sums in the unpublished programming to ensure untamperability. Sure maybe pay a guy for 6 months of effort, and then he won't be able to use it on every one that gets sent to them, or maybe he's still not able to crack it. Now the six cyclinder cars use a Seimens unit that's been cracked for years, but I didn't put a Seimens controled car on the list did I?
Note that AA does tuning on six cylinder car's, not one four is listed either. It's untuneable as stated.
James, The 1.9 is not a big enough market for them to care about. Do what you want, I look for solutions not road blocks. As I stated the 350z was not crackable per Nissan and we found a crack in less than 30 days. The market was big enough to make that worth doing.
Edit:So James did you call them or just assume?Quote:
Active Autowerke also offers a varied array of software available for many different "custom" applications that may not be listed on the website. This applications include Force Induced cars as well as naturally aspirated cars. We also specialize in software for "RACE" applications. If you don't see what you are looking for please feel free to contact our sales staff so they can assist you.[/b]
preface; i've never worked with or seen auto focused software code.
statement; all code should be crackable or be worked around. people can hack microsoft, linux, or whatever other multi-bajillion dollar software that's out there from companies whose entire job it is to create and protect the software they write. any software in a car written as secondary concern relative to the design and engineering of the car itself should be a piece of cake if someone cares enough to try.
i would be more than a little surprised if they really spend that much time an money to write more secure code than microsoft.
James - Actually, any authorized Dinan dealer can install the software - the ECU does not have to be sent in. It is a re-flash. Dinan claims some HP improvement (but <10), and it does raise the rev limit (which may help lap times if it eliminates a shift or two per lap).Quote:
..acutally I don't think it's a reflash as you need to send the whole ECU in.
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Now, finding somebody with the right interface software, a dyno lying around, and the knowledge to do a real race tune is a different matter.. It's absolutely possible, but will likely cost cubic dollars due to lack of demand, and the return you get on that investment is an unknown at the moment due to lack of a broad base of data.. Everybody races a BMW 6-cylinder, it's just us loonies trying to make the 4-bangers perform. Now, if I could bolt on a Downing-Atlanta supercharger without anybody noticing, I could get some real power out of that 1.9! :D
-noam
Wouldn't it make sense that if you did a SC for it, you would almost HAVE to offer a CPU upgrade? Anybody with aftermarket parts of this nature for these things must have broken the code.Quote:
Now, if I could bolt on a Downing-Atlanta supercharger without anybody noticing, I could get some real power out of that 1.9! :D
-noam [/b]
We've been through this before, but with my Prelude (and I believe the Accord's) case you are wrong. :rolleyes: Joe, with the forum you provided a link to, where did you see that my Prelude's ECU is chipable? Did you also notice the forum for Accords & Preludes and the sub-title to that? :(Quote:
Correct. Honda OBD0 is chipable, its just not mainstreem[/b]
I've spoken with numerous sources, sent the ECU out to see if there was any way, and there's not. Jake, for what it's worth Peter Keane would have a good clue about the Prelude's ECU. I even went as far as contacting a guy in Canada whose know in the Honda ECU tuning world as THE guy. He was hoping there was a backdoor way of doing it vs. the traditional methods. (I was ready to tow my Canada to get this done, while there try out one of the local tracks.) There are also a few prelude and accord forums I've tapped into. I've even having a tough time getting a source to use a piggy back system, which previously I was told wouldn't be an issue.
From what I've been told, I can convert the OBD0 to an OBD1 and then play around with it although I haven't determined what that entails (wiring, new box needed, ect.).
If someone can actually provide me a company who will chip my OBD0 for tuning, I'd love to know who it is. Please prove me wrong and supply me with someone who will do this for me.
Dave if you want to pay me to find a way I will do the work. I pointed to a link with a lot of good info. My understanding is you have to de-solder the factory chip solder in a socket and profram the new chip. I also am sure that a proper written rule would allow and obd1 upgrade to a car that could be proved otherwise.
The early obdo 240sx is handled exactlt as I described. Radio shack and Fry's electronic's made the mechanical part easy. the web made the software and the help to do the first one I ever did. It just took desire to do it.