Headers: ceramic coating? Wrapping?

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10-07-2004, 08:01 AM
Jake

Headers: ceramic coating? Wrapping?

I've been considering getting a header for my ITA MR2, and have been looking for a 4:1 header. The only one that is available that isn't cu$tom made is made by pacesetter for the Corolla. Good news is it is dirt cheap.

Here's the question - I can get it for $140 or $100 more for their Armor ceramic coating. Should I bother? Any effect on performance or underhood temps? Or should I just wrap it to keep the underhood temps down. The header runs close to the starter - so temps are a concern to me.

Here's what they are offering: "ARMOR*Coat, a polished, 2000 degree F metallic-ceramic coating. Each header undergoes an extensive perparation phase followed by two applications of the coating and a high-temp curing process. The ARMOR*Coat won't discolor like paint, chrome or dull finish coating, reduces underhood temperatures, resists rust and corrosion and is easy to keep clean."

I coudn't care less about how it looks, so if this is just so it's pretty - I'll get them uncoated.

Thanks!
10-07-2004, 08:51 AM
joeg

Jake--I would opt for the ceramic coating because it will extend the life of the header--slows corrosion.

Forget the wrap. My experience is that it traps moisture and shortens header life by giving corrosion a better atmosphere to work in!

It does reduce heat better than the coating, but I prefer that a part last a long tiome.

Regards.
10-07-2004, 08:57 AM
R2 Racing

when I got my new "pimpy" header for my ITA Integra I first ordered it with no coating - they wanted like $150 to do it. I ran I think two events on it with no coating before deciding to send it out. I got it coated inside and out and I think it did wonders. The under hood temps really did decrease. Also, my header just dumps into a 2.5" exhaust with a Thrush tube to "take the edge off". If you know, the Thrush comes painted red and usually that red painting will stay pretty well kept. However, after I had my header coated, the paint on the Thrush started baking, turning black, chipping off, etc. You can definately tell that the heats being taken through the exhaust and not into the engine bay.

I'd never do the header wrap bacuase it just accelerates the breakdown of the metal. The wrap only wraps the outside of the header so the heat still gets into the metal but has no where to go - that greatly reduces the life of your header. The ceramic is inside and out so you don't get this problem.
10-07-2004, 09:22 AM
HBennett

The header wrap will definitely shorten the life of the header. Go with the coating.

Howard
10-07-2004, 10:54 AM
924Guy

I also have a bad header/starter issue in the '24. My car ate starters - we finally just gave up trying to start it when hot. I had a nice MSDS header with the ceramic coating from second season onward. While it may have reduced temps vs an uncoated header, it wasn't enough.

I finally (this year) wrapped the header. In doing so, we went the extra mile to make sure it was done properly; my fabricator (who worked for Roush) wrapped the header properly, did a PERFECT job of it, very clean, snug and tight, then I hosed it down with the coating that the manufacturer sells to protect and seal the wrap.

Since doing this (and yet another starter), I have had no problems with starter failure. The engine is cooling very well, but I've also added a larger oil cooler, so that doesn't hurt. I can't comment on header life, but after spending three years fighting with dead starters... I don't frickin' care!!! If I have to put on a new header in 10 years due to rot... well, it'll be mangled from excessive curbing by then anyway.

I can state a few other observations. The coating on the wrap smoked very toxic when I ran the car, thought it was an electrical fire at first. Very nasty, do in a very well ventilated place... preferably the middle of a pasture right before a hurricane hits. Evil. My fabricator also noted that the ceramic coating was virtually bulletproof, hard to even grind off to weld the header.

I am looking forward to re-wrapping the header this winter; I have to remove it and re-weld EGT bungs (wrong size), and I've shredded the lower wrap on the curbs at Mid-O anyway... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif

------------------
Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com
10-07-2004, 11:07 AM
Geo

Get the header uncoated. Don't bother with their coating. Don't bother with header wrap.

Send the header to Swain Tech.

http://www.swaintech.com

Most ceramic coatings are little more than high temp paint. The Swain Tech coating is a thick coating that is a true thermal barrier. It's far more effective than the usual header coatings. It comes in white, but believe it or not it's paintable. It's a rough coating as well. If you want pretty, get another one.

My Infiniti G20 had a header with a conventional coating when it was NA. When I installed a turbo engine I had the exhaust manifold, turbine housing, and J-pipe all coated with Swain's White Lightning. The under hood temps with the turbo engine were noticeably lower with the turbo engine with coatins than NA with the conventionally coated header.

Swain has a client that uses underground locomotives. They had to lower the external temp of the exhaust manifolds from 925*F to 425*F. The conventional coaters could only get to around 725*F. They then called Swain. First try they got 475*F. With a little thicker application they hit 425*F.

You'll pay a little more for the Swain coating (but it doesn't sound like that much more), but it's the most effective you'll find.

------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
10-07-2004, 12:05 PM
cherokee

I do have a cu$tom header on my 85 MR2, and let me tell you about my life. Rap the header. Yes it traps in moisture but how often is it going to get wet, how often do you use the car...we are not talking street cars here. If you want to change the wrapping there is a good winter project http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif The MR2 is very different in the way EVERYTHING is in there. You want to keep the under "hood" temps down as much as possible. The way the pipes have to exit the car leave very little wiggle room, My application ran very close to the oil pan and Norm (MR. MR2 as far as I am conserned) suggested I rap the header as it run right under a main. That is good enough for me. He was on this site quite some time ago as ITAMR2 but I have not talked to him in over a year.
10-07-2004, 04:39 PM
Tom Donnelly

I already know the answer, but I'm still gonna ask. The swaintech coating is only legal for the header, right?

What about brake calipers?

Tom

(And has anyone gone as far as using header wrap on a coated header? Or used a coating inside the header to smooth it out?)

[This message has been edited by Tom Donnelly (edited October 07, 2004).]
10-07-2004, 05:09 PM
Greg Gauper

I have not, but on the FF & FC websites they have discussed this at great length. The coating on the inside is not there to 'smooth' the flow but rather to keep the heat in the exhaust gas and not transfer it to the header, to improve scavaging AND to reduce underhood temps.

Kevins description above shows the effect of this....since the gas is hotter when it leaves the header, it was hot enough to burn the paint on his muffler, where as before he coated the header, most of the exhaust heat went into the header and the gas cooled considerably before it got to the muffler.
10-07-2004, 09:31 PM
dyoungre

Why would you want to coat a brake caliper with insulating material - wouldn't that keep the heat IN the caliper and boil your fluid???

You surely couldn't insulate the piston side....
Better question (though not necessarily cost effective) - has anyone either coated the backside of their brake PADS, or coated spacers to reduce the heat to the brake fluid?

------------------
Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61
10-07-2004, 09:36 PM
Jake

Does it make sense to get a $140 header a $150 coating? Here's the bugger:
http://www.pacesetterexhaust.com/images/72c1154.jpg
10-07-2004, 10:11 PM
lateapex911

Sure! Why not? I'd rather do it to a $140 dollar header that was on sale for $119, wouldn't you?

I think the $ is irellevant...if it is the right part, it makes sense to get the proper performance out of it.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
10-07-2004, 10:20 PM
dyoungre

KISS-

Cooler intake air is denser. cooler underhood means smaller temperature differential across radiator (work with me here, ok?) Biggest underhood heat contributor - exhaust manifold. Remember that at 1000 deg and up, convection is NOT the only enemy - you are getting a lot of radiation as well! Cool that exhaust - no matter the cost.
10-08-2004, 08:47 AM
gran racing

I'd rather see you spend $140 to get the header coated by the other source then spend $100 to get pace setter's Armor coat.

Here are the real questions for you...which is worse?

- spend $140 plus shipping to get the header coated

- spend $30 for header wrap but have to wrap the header with it

Either way, I would recommend you buy it. You're going to have the MR2 for quite a long time yet so it would be worth the small investment.

(I wrapped my DC sports header 4 years ago and see no rust, or other negative effects. It had a silver paint, don't think it was coated)

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13
'87 Honda Prelude si
NOW ITB!!!
10-08-2004, 10:14 AM
jc836

So far our DC 4-2-1 CC header is holding up very well. There is no discoloration and thermally the underhood temps seem to be about the same as the stock manifold w/heatshield. Some people will use the wrapping when there is an issue with proximity. There is an alternate solution-cover the starter with a shield made by one of the companies that supply the woven fabric w/aluminum foil facing. This way you will not have a condensation problem with the header.

------------------
Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'99 Prelude=a sweet song
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow
10-08-2004, 11:37 AM
924Guy

I tried using the shield - didn't help, only made it worse. Just kept heat in the starter, it seemed, cutting down on the ability of the starter to shed heat gained through conduction with the block.

------------------
Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com
10-08-2004, 11:37 AM
Geo

Quote:

Originally posted by dyoungre:
Why would you want to coat a brake caliper with insulating material - wouldn't that keep the heat IN the caliper and boil your fluid???

You wouldn't. You would coat a caliper with a the Black Body Emitting coating. It helps shed heat. Also illegal in IT though.

------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
10-08-2004, 04:01 PM
Tom Donnelly

George,
Thanks for the info. I figured the coating was illegal for the calipers.

Greg,
I wasn't sure about the inner coating for the header. If the inner coating was smooth as opposed to rough like the swaintech, you'd have a flow advantage as well as handling the heat as well, wouldn't you?
I guess I need to check out the formula site.
Thanks.

Tom
10-08-2004, 04:04 PM
JohnRW

Quote:

Originally posted by Geo:
Also illegal in IT though.

Are you sure ?
10-08-2004, 05:26 PM
Geo

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnRW:
Are you sure ?

I cannot imagine how they could be. I can't find anything specifically allowing them and if it doesn't say you can, you can't.

------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
10-08-2004, 09:20 PM
JohnRW

Quote:

Originally posted by Geo:
I cannot imagine how they could be.

Well, you initially stated it as a fact, but it seems to be an opinion. I'm just trying to provide a distinction between the two.

Thermal coatings are allowed on headers and exhausts, because the GCR specifically says those are unrestricted.

Thermal or anti-friction or thermal barrier or impregnated or anti-gravity coatings are specifically considered non-compliant when used on internal engine surfaces and the insides of intake manifolds. The GCR states this clearly. Why call out a list of specific parts where those coatings cannot be used, but not include other parts ? "You can't paint your front porch green" doesn't mean that I can't paint my back porch green.

It's known that many stock calipers come painted. It's not known why they're painted. Is it for corrosion protection, or for heat transfer, or for both, as rust is a lousy conductor of heat ? We don't know, so it's difficult to make the argument that using a good heat radiation paint or coating 'performs a prohibited function', which some might cite as a counter-argument. It's not a 'tortured' interpretation, in that light.

The real test is "What would the SOM's think, and then on appeal, what would a Nat'l Court think ?". Until someone can cite an example of a Nat'l Court finding, this is all just opinion.

I probably have more 'appearances before the SOM' than you have 'race starts' (not sure whether that's good or bad...). My opinion is that I could convince an SOM Court that it's legal. I have no idea as to how it would fare at the appeal level, if it got there.

But it's an interesting question.
10-08-2004, 11:39 PM
Geo

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnRW:
Well, you initially stated it as a fact, but it seems to be an opinion. I'm just trying to provide a distinction between the two.

I can fully appreciate that.

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnRW:
Why call out a list of specific parts where those coatings cannot be used, but not include other parts ? "You can't paint your front porch green" doesn't mean that I can't paint my back porch green.

Oh boy, I think that's dangerous ground. That's saying "if it doesn't say I can't I can." We all know that is not how the rule book works.

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnRW:
The real test is "What would the SOM's think, and then on appeal, what would a Nat'l Court think ?". Until someone can cite an example of a Nat'l Court finding, this is all just opinion.

Again, I couldn't agree more.

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnRW:
I probably have more 'appearances before the SOM' than you have 'race starts' (not sure whether that's good or bad...).

I'm sure that's true. We all know you're just a bad boy. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif Seriously, I am sure you are correct here.

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnRW:
My opinion is that I could convince an SOM Court that it's legal. I have no idea as to how it would fare at the appeal level, if it got there.

But it's an interesting question.

No doubt. And the SOMs and COA are not always predictable.

I'll go back to the fact that I cannot find anything in the CGR or ITCS that would allow for BBE coatings on brake calipers. You may convince a SOM or COA that it's paint and have them rule OK, but that still doesn't mean it's legal because the claim would be fraudulent. The Swain BBE coating looks like flat black paint (I had it on my turbo G20 intercooler) so it would be hard to tell what it really is.

That said, I don't see anything allowing for painting calipers that are not painted from the factory.

------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
10-09-2004, 12:01 AM
Geo

Looking through the ITCS I reread the following.....

"No interchange of parts between assemblies is permitted, and all parts of an assembly shall be as originally produced for that assembly (such parts may, however, be coated, painted, or plated).

Based upon this statement, I must recant. If it says you can, you bloody well can.

------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
10-11-2004, 05:32 PM
Mark LaBarre

The problem isn't with the wrap trapping moisture. Without the surounding air available to disapate the heat from the exhaust, the header temp itself runs much higher. The oxygen in the atmosphere still comes in contact with the now hotter metal, and will greatly increase the rate of oxidation (deterioration) of the metal (same principle behind the cutting torch). I had a header go bad in one season from wrapping it.
10-12-2004, 10:47 AM
924Guy

That makes a whole lot more sense!!! I'm really interested now to see how my wrapped and coated header turns out, given that the coating seems to do a very good job of sealing against rust. Of course, to coat the inside and keep the head away from the header wall is still even better...

------------------
Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com
10-16-2004, 10:06 AM
Ron Earp

Although not high tech, I have had nice results using hi-temp manifold paint, brush on type, to seal the metal against rust and then wrap it. Holds up well and makes a noticable difference in under hood temps. Cheap too, and, what I'll be doing on my Jensen header.

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!
10-17-2004, 07:31 PM
Blix

OK, I have two questions now...
1. What is the address of the FC and FF forums?

2. I want to revist the coating the inside thing...is it preferrable to use a more effective coating with respect to temp reduction, or is it better to use a smooth coating?

Thanks

E
10-18-2004, 08:43 AM
Greg Gauper

http://www.apexspeed.com/
10-24-2004, 09:14 PM
Spinnetti

Quote:

Originally posted by Jake:
Does it make sense to get a $140 header a $150 coating? Here's the bugger:
http://www.pacesetterexhaust.com/images/72c1154.jpg

Heres whats really funny. (I have an IT/A Corolla, and have had several custom MR2's, including a 20v one).

The picture says Corolla, but is the MR2 header!

It's essentially junk, and makes about the same power as stock, but I couldn't resist doing an aftermarket one either.

Anyhow, if you are serious about doing the best you can in IT, Have it coated, AND wrap it. Reduced temps and the ability to make more power due to the retained energy in the gas flow. Hotter headers = faster deterioration, but the ceramic takes care of that part.

Suck it up and do both.

[This message has been edited by Spinnetti (edited October 24, 2004).]
10-25-2004, 08:29 PM
Jake

Quote:

Originally posted by Spinnetti:
It's essentially junk, and makes about the same power as stock, but I couldn't resist doing an aftermarket one either.

After additional research, I've come to the same conclusion. Apparently the stock header puts out the same power. Oh well - at least that's less work for me!
10-25-2004, 08:30 PM
Jake

Quote:

Originally posted by Spinnetti:
(I have an IT/A Corolla, and have had several custom MR2's, including a 20v one

Any tips for making the 4AGE a little quicker?
11-07-2004, 03:44 PM
Spinnetti

Quote:

Originally posted by Jake:
Any tips for making the 4AGE a little quicker?

Jake,

not really. The 4AGE doesn't have much left in it in stock configuration. That being said, theres LOTS of little things that add up: Run the lightest clutch you can find (solid hub, 4 puck ceramic).040 overbore pistons, cam timing with offset key, rising rate fuel regulator (stock system goes lean on full throttle), blueprint the injectors, get good plug wires (I run TRD), use a EGT to tune fuel pressure, Denso Iridium plugs gapped .045 or so, Index the plugs, bump the timing up a few points, run regular gas (burns faster), blueprint, balance as much as possible, underdrive pulleys, Surface the head, thermally insulating intake gaskets, header (lighter if nothing else), Thermally wrap the intake and exhaust, remove and block off all the smog stuff etc... Also, not much point in ECU mods.. there's essentially nothing to be gained there.
Theres more stuff, but can't think of it right now... email me sometime if you want. Have plenty of MR2/Corolla GT-S/Toyota experience..

BTW, I watched some of your videos - you guys are NUTS! It looks more like the ole figure 8 racing than the IT that I'm familiar with!
11-07-2004, 07:15 PM
ITANorm

Quote:

Originally posted by Spinnetti:
Also, not much point in ECU mods.. there's essentially nothing to be gained there.

Jake already is the master of the ONE that works.

Other than that, you're pretty well spot-on. And, yeah, even TED's custom IT header only makes about 3HP over stock. It does shave about 15# off the rear (MR2, obviously).

And Cherokee - I've always been ITANorm on this forum - I'm ITA-MR2 over on www.MR2OC.com.

------------------
Norm - #55 ITA, '86 MR2. [email protected]
http://home.alltel.net/jberry/img107.jpg
Website: home.alltel.net/jberry
11-08-2004, 08:55 PM
cherokee

Sorry...I got my boards confused.

I still have my MR2...the wife is thinking about wanting to race...that would be too much fun. Execpt I would have to get a bigger trailer and something to tow it with. She is pretty good on things with motors, she spent the weekend riding dirt bikes up and down the Arkansas mountains. Arkansas has mountins to folks in Kansas.
11-09-2004, 02:02 AM
ITANorm

Quote:

Originally posted by cherokee:
I would have to get a bigger trailer and something to tow it with.

Segue . . .

Have you checked out my truck / trailer for sale ad in the Classified section?? http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif (Cheap promo.)
11-09-2004, 10:39 AM
cherokee

That would be one VERY BIG step up from the old 76 Dodge motorhome that I have now.

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