DOT# required over 10,001 lbs. (4,536 kg)

Here we go again. I got pulled over in Maryland by the State Highway Patrol. He started off by saying I wasn't being pulled over for anything other than no Dot#. I was told that because I was over 10,000lbs I was required to have a USDOT#. He gave me a small $60 ticket and said I could have had about a few thousand in tickets.

He gave me this website http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov I just spent some time on there and spoke with them. I was sent to a supervisor and spoke to her and the answer was yes we do need it. She asked if we win anything. Can you believe that one ??? I crappy trophy I told her. She said I know its a stretch but its required. Now I am in a DOT data base and If I get pulled over again without the # the fines are heavy.



Here's the question that gets us all.

Will any of your vehicles weigh 10,001 lbs. (4,536 kg) or more?

As measured in either:

Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW)
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR)
Gross Combination Weight (GCW)
Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR)

So my 7,200lbs F350 DRW with a Pace 24ft. + a 3,600lbs racecar puts me way over. The Dot # is free, you need a physical and you have to have the DOT# on both sides of the truck. You also need to keep a log book. The best is now you have to pull into the weigh stations. Priceless.

Greg, I think even some of the smallest tow setups - such as a basic F-150 plus car on open trailer - may be pushing 10k GCWR...

Got some links from that site you can forward with the relevant info? I wholly recommend, that when someone in bureaucracy - and SCCA Scrutineering - tells you something as "fact", you immediately respond, "Can you show that to me in the regulations?" Because, as you can imagine, there's no downside to a bureaucrat telling you that you cannot do something when you can (you go away), as opposed to them telling you that you can do something when you cannot (they get their ass chewed on).

Unless and until they prove to you that what they're saying is true by pointing to the regulations chapter and verse, you're going by nothing more than a bureaucrat's interpretation of what their career needs to be until retirement... - GA

YMV, but...390.3 Exceptions. Unless otherwise specifically provided, the rules in this subchapter do not apply to —

(f)(1) All school bus operations as defined in §390.5;

(f)(2) Transportation performed by the Federal government, a State, or any political subdivision of a State, or an agency established under a compact between States that has been approved by the Congress of the United States;

(f)(3) The occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise;[i]

We are club racers; not pro racers! There should be bo "winnings".

Good luck in fighting the ticket.

Greg is correct. Unless you drive your race car to the track, anyone is likely hauling over th 10K limit. Add your truck, trailer, cars and spares.

To add to Joeg's post...

From the web site (bold is mine):

Commercial Motor Vehicle (49 CFR Part 390.5, Definitions)
Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle:

(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or
(2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or
(3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or
(4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C.

Interstate commerce means trade, traffic, or transportation in the United States—
(1) Between a place in a State and a place outside of such State (including a place outside of the United States);
(2) Between two places in a State through another State or a place outside of the United States; or
(3) Between two places in a State as part of trade, traffic, or transportation originating or terminating outside the State or the United States.

§390.3(f)(3) General applicability,
Exceptions. Unless otherwise specifically provided, the rules in this subchapter do not apply to:
- The occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise.

GregM, join the National Motorists Association (if you're not already) and fight the ticket. I'll be glad to help as I can. - GA

...and the clincher. From:

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations...1738&guidence=Y

Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the "occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise" apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?

Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.



I strongly encourage everyone to browse to the above-listed web pages and print out these specific pages from the FMCSA web site. Have them handy for if you are pulled over.

GregM, time to plead "not guilty."

I now was able to get someone else on the phone and have another call into the Fed's. Section 390.3(f)(3) Apparently many mean we are exempt but you have to know the law. We also can't have any decal's on the outside of the trailer / truck for sponsors.

I will keep you all posted on this.

We have been having this discussion over at Specmiata.com . I have contacted VA. DMV and FMCSA and they both told me same thing, "You do not require any of the special licenses, registration etc.". I think the key issue is whether you do this as a business. I do not; if you do, then you would require the registration and medical card (physical) and log book.

Racing for a piece of wood is not compensation. You would have to be issued a 1099, W-2 or some other compensation receipt for it to be considered compensation (my tax advisor's advice).

Greg M. I would fight the issue unless you are doing this for compensation and have been doing this as a business (neither your original post nor subsequent posts disclose that). Either way, good luck! :023:

Regards,

Alan

Excuse the English, but is getting your rocks off compensation? If so, we are all in trouble..........but on the subject, is that why we see "not for hire" on alot of haulers? Does that alone get us off the DOT's list? I now think alot of us are in trouble. What about an RV as a tow vehicle, same rules apply? Please keep us informed with your sage, thanks.

We get the government we deserve.

Register to vote. Don't be afraid to speak LOUDLY and FORCEFULLY to your elected officials. Do not be afraid to speak firmly and authoritatively to officers of the law who don't know what the f$*k they're talking about.

This stuff really steams me. Regulators clearly trying to assert authority to regulate things that state and federal legislatures have CLEARLY told them that they can't regulate. RTFL.

Assholes.

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I strongly encourage everyone to browse to the above-listed web pages and print out these specific pages from the FMCSA web site. Have them handy for if you are pulled over.
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Greg M and Greg A... Got to admit, I love when someone does the homework and shares. This is great info to keep printed out in your trailer (especially enclosed trailers) to pull out if you are ever pulled over.

Thanks a million!!! :035:

Raymond "46' enclosed steel trailer weighing in over 26,000lbs (With truck) and hoping to never get pulled over :wacko: " Blethen

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Greg M and Greg A... Got to admit, I love when someone does the homework and shares. This is great info to keep printed out in your trailer (especially enclosed trailers) to pull out if you are ever pulled over.

Thanks a million!!! :035:

Raymond "46' enclosed steel trailer weighing in over 26,000lbs (With truck) and hoping to never get pulled over :wacko: " Blethen
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If you weigh over 26,000# and are not tagged as an RV you will need a CDL and a whole lot of other items. Cross that weight number and your whole world changes.

If I were to max out my S-10 I'd be over that limit.

Max Gross wt: 5150 lbs
Max trailer wt: 6000 lbs
total wt: 11150 lbs

As it is, I'm probably just over 9000 lbs and that's with an open trailer and no tire rack.

James

Not to beat a dead horse as the website links give you all the information you need but:

gvwr of tow vehicle plus gvwr of trailer better equal the weight allowance of your vehicle tag. Does not matter if it is empty or loaded it better add up or you will get one very nasty ticket.

Remember, that magical GCVW is not based on your ACTUAL weight, but your weight RATING. That means if you're CAPABLE of over 10,001 then that's all that matters, even if your actual weight is 9,999...

The reason trucks get weighed is not to verify what their GCVW is, but rather to assure that they're not exceeding it.

Be vewy cawefull...- GA

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If you weigh over 26,000# and are not tagged as an RV you will need a CDL and a whole lot of other items. Cross that weight number and your whole world changes.
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I believe all of this to be true and is a separate issue when it comes whether or not the activity is done for compensation.

Secondly, the Federal DOT number requirement in the commercial truck world only applies if you are crossing state lines. If you are not, it does not matter how heavy you are, you still don't need one (unless your'e hauling hazardous materials).

- [b]The occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation "nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise"

Hmm Now this could be a bit of a problem since I am self employed and sponsor our car. Since My trailer has company logo location phone # etc on trailer and car. Not sure how much "furtherance" it does for my busines. It does a great deal of furtherance of keeping money moving in the economy. Hmmm Truck is 8620 Trailer 3650 car 2680 plus Gear etc. At this point have not been bothered running PA,NY, NJ, De, Oh, MD,VA,Mass,& NH. Probably Overdue. :eclipsee_steering:

As a former Motor Carrier inspector, with enforcement authority, I can say without hesitation that the WEIGHT of your tow vehicle and trailer do not matter unless you are OVER the rated capacity of the individual component or have FAILED to properly declare the capacity to your state revenue department. (ie tags)

It is all about GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating) or GCWR (gross combination weight rating).

Remember there are 2 parts to this equation, one about the vehicle/trailer and one about the driver.

<26,000 GVWR or GCWR and no CDL required IF you are not engaged in commerce, if you are engaged in commerce then ALL of the motor carrieer safety laws apply but you still do not need a CDL. YOu may however have to be medically qualified to operate a commercial motor vehicle BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE ENGAGED IN COMMERCE.

> 26,000 GVWR or GCWR and it becomes a big MAYBE you need a CDL and MAYBE you need to comply with the safety laws. If engaged in commerce then you have to comply with almost everything.

Bottom line, regardles of the decals, markings on the tow vehicle or trailer if you are NOT engaged in commerce as defined above then you are NOT subject to the motor carrier laws under the federal statute.

Further, as the exemption cited above regarding towing a race car states, you are EXEMPT.

You may however fall under a state statute.

Save your breath on the roadside, be polite, gather the facts, and be prepared to go to court. Most COMPETENT officers will not be offended by a court appearance. I know I wasn&#39;t :P

WHen court time comes, be prepared with photos, the FMCSA administrative opinions, prior case law, etc. and continue to be polite, expecially when citing the part about "I do not RACE for profit, it is only a hobby and a very expensive one at that!"

YMMV

PBallance Thank you for posting.

We are seeing more and more of us getting pulled over and harrassed this year. We need to get to the bottom of this situation. I have heard of many others getting stopped in many different states. Now we hear of 2 more from dhrmx5 on SCCAForums.

We as a group are a very large organization. We should have SCCA world headquarters get into this with the DOT and help resolve this issue.

I am not a lawyer but I find it hard to believe any State could relax a Federal DOT Law enforced by the Federal Motor CarrierSafety Administration.

The problem we have is there are too many false stories of whats legal and whats not and we are driving around with a false sense of security until we get stopped.

Still waiting for my return call from their " legal " department.

Greg--I do not think the Club can be of much help. This impacts quite a bit of hobbiests, including boaters, drag racers, car show entrants, etc., etc.

AARP would be a better choice...really. And...(ahem....) many of us qualify for membership.

John--I have been an AARP member for years!!

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Greg--I do not think the Club can be of much help. This impacts quite a bit of hobbiests, including boaters, drag racers, car show entrants, etc., etc.
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SCCA should help to educate the racers about towing as almost all of us tow to the track. Plus don&#39;t "WE"
( SCCA , the Club) have a lawyer on staff ? and doesn&#39;t " our " ( the racers ) money pay for it all ??? and isn&#39;t our end of the Club Racing producing revenue for the club unlike Pro Racing ?????

Just a few thoughts to ponder ..................................

Greg--Our club has lawyers but you should also remember that much of the problem is uneven interpretation of Federal-based laws and regulations by individual "state level" authorities. (like state troopers and state dot/dmv enforcement teams).

A lawyer in Topeka is not going to be of much help with an incident in West Virgina or Arizona.

Cheers.

What would be really nice is if our SCCA leadership/lawyers would get in touch with NHRA/IHRA/Boating/Horse/etc (heck, even NASA) groups and all work together to help the feds understand that what 90% of us are doing is NOT commercial.

And while they&#39;re at it, they could produce a quick-reference card for all members that would help us understand when we&#39;re in the wrong, and at the same time give us the ammo we need to defend ourselves at the time we&#39;re pulled over.

Fighting the ticket later isn&#39;t the answer - Murphy will make sure that you&#39;re pulled over and ticketed at the far end of your once-a-season 15-hour tow, not 10 minutes from your house.

Jarrod

All of these laws are to enforce the safety of all of us when we are driving on the road, be it the big vehicle or the small vehicle next to the crazy truck driver. If all these organizations (SCCA, NHRA, IHRA, Boating, Horse, NASA, etc) got together to "clarify" the law then I think you would see either a recomendation or a law change, to require you to have special licences, logs, weight checks etc.. Do I want to deal with that, heck no! especially with the huge trailer that I have, however would it be the best for all of us in terms of safety??? absolutely.

Raymond

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...all work together to help the feds understand that what 90% of us are doing is NOT commercial...produce a quick-reference card for all members that would help us understand...[/b]

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Bingo.

The nice thing about the Internet, though, is we can do this ourselves. In fact, I may take the initiative to create a small brochure-like PDF for people to be able to download and print out. Hell, it ain&#39;t rocket science, right...?

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....GregM, join the National Motorists Association (if you&#39;re not already) and fight the ticket. I&#39;ll be glad to help as I can. - GA....

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GA, I think this bears repeating. NMA is a sponsor to BMW Club Racing, and I run their optional sticker on my car. I have a friend who got a deer in Iowa on a transcontinental road trip from California to South Carolina and back. The Iowa trooper runs his license and finds his license is revoked. Well this is the first time he finds out about it. If your interested in the details you can find it here.

James

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Bingo.

The nice thing about the Internet, though, is we can do this ourselves. In fact, I may take the initiative to create a small brochure-like PDF for people to be able to download and print out. Hell, it ain&#39;t rocket science, right...?
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This is what I am trying to get done. I have been in contact with someone at Federal DOT. I know am awaiting his return e-mail on this clarification for us all. He immediately referenced the law that say&#39;s we&#39;re ok. We have been playing phone tag for two weeks on this. Please stand by.........................

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This is what I am trying to get done. I have been in contact with someone at Federal DOT. I know am awaiting his return e-mail on this clarification for us all. He immediately referenced the law that say&#39;s we&#39;re ok. We have been playing phone tag for two weeks on this. Please stand by.........................
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Never thought my initial post would carry this far.
Thanks for the legwork on this. I&#39;m very interested in the results.

Regards

Dave A.

Thanks for all the information sharing on this subject. I found it very helpful.

I just got the final word from the DOT and it is not required as long as you follow the rules listed below in Question 21 from the DOT website.



Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the "occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise" apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events? Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (B) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.



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It was HIGHLY suggested that we carry a copy of this with us at all times. Also here is the number to DOT licensing 1-888-877-2181 Monday - Friday 8am - 8pm EST. that you can call if you get pulled over and have a problem.



" Not for Hire " decal&#39;s can&#39;t hurt but don&#39;t mean s___ if the guy is looking for a potential DOT violator. Knowing the law is the only thing that will help you.

Just some equipement suggestions they had in case we get pulled over.

1. Have road flares / or some kind of safety reflectors

2. Have a spare tire for both truck and trailer

3. Have a method of making the repair.

4. Don&#39;t have any sponsor decal&#39;s on the rig or trailer

5. Make sure the breakaway cable is attached properly

6.Make sure all lighting is functional

7.Vehicle and or trailer cannot be registered to a business ( I see many guy&#39;s towing with commercially used trucks , dump trucks, landscaping trucks etc.)

and most important of all now.....................

5.Have a copy of DOT question 21 !!!!!! and be prepared to answer question 1 & 2 correctly.