Andy B. needs some BMW comp in ITA, anyone know if any e36 318's are being built?
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Andy B. needs some BMW comp in ITA, anyone know if any e36 318's are being built?
Even worse he's got a couple of Z3's to hold him up when lapping!!
R
I may be dumb but I think the cars have a chance in ITA at 2600 lbs...... Love to know if anybody is building one.
Rob, any source for a good header for these cars ??
Fred,
I have been peripherally trying to help Rob with his development (searching for suppliers, etc) and it seems we have come up real short on go-fast stuff for these 1.9's.
I think they could be good too but they may have to be all one-offs like Greg's NX effort.
AB
See Andy, everyone has it out for the BMW guys :D even vendors......... It is a shame that M42 / M44 engine stuff is so rare, I think they raced these motors in europe a few years back but all my internet search comes up with nothing........... except some cool neon carbon chrome dress up stuff! This seems like a uphill battle and I like it.
We have a e30 318 that is was raced twice last year with decent results from a 130k mile motor...
In terms of go-fast goodies a lot of stuff from the m50s and euro s50s swaps in however it is all illegal stuff... (i.e. solid lifters valve train goodies pistons rods, and cranks from diesel 320s yeild a 2.1 displacement i believe)
BMW did race these in e36 320 touring cars in the early 90s after the s14 m3 engine was no longer. They were getting around 320hp or something to that tune but everything was obviously bmw backed...
Go fast goodies I think will come in the form of one off pieces as well as proper FI tuning... I know of cars with simple readily available bolt ons putting down well above BMWs listed hp rating...
for the serp belt cars, underdrive pulleys are available, for the vbelt cars a custom set must be made... Cam timing is adjustable and can produce some power with intake adjustments...
other than that getting the chassis right and suspension components to the extent of IT rules is where your time should be spent.
On another note, not sure about the e36 variant, but the e30s had a very nice stainless header from the factory, not a cast type manifold. Thats one option I suppose if you guys dont have that header piece on the e36 chassis... Its actually sized appropriatly as well from my math...
Supposedly the other big problem is the harmonic balancer, but im thinking its more internet wives tale type of stuff as opposed to truth. Its a rubber unit and is one of the major problems when revving past 7200... Conforti has SUPPOSEDLY had these come apart when doing chip tuning, but too many variables like was it an old weather checked unit to begin with etc...
The hydraulic valve train is a bit of another problem past 7200rpm... however a lot of your off the shelf chips (the JC and the EAT) chip limit revs at 7200.
Tearing one down thinking your going to find all kinds of things BMW missed is another problem... these are built extremmely well, all ports are matched, everything is already extremmely close in terms of balancing, and on my mentioned 130k street driven car the bearings were just breaking into the factory tolerance! rings were also at factory spec and the damn cylinder walls still had the factory cross hatching
A few names I can drop are GT-tecknic and Rebello, GT-tecknic was building a full tilt GT2-3??? entry with the m42 powerplant, however as said full tilt with custom FI and/or carbs, custom custom custom was the key on that motor... Ive emailed them a few times but they have never gotten back to me...
There is also another place in Holland that has built the S42 variant which is the race m42 with a 2.0 liter capacity... They sell a lot of custom pieces that they build however I priced one of their harmonic balancers and a standard version was something to the tune of 800 bucks, (not including shipping from holland) and a lightweight version was in the 13-1400 range... So while they probabaly know what they're doing they're going to be spendy parts... (and as already mentioned mostly IT ILLEGAL)
Snowman
Any websites / links to the folks in Holland ?
Fred, Mark Whight (a member of RTP racing) has put some thought into building one of these. Not sure if he started tracking down parts, but you might want to talk to him.
PM me and I'll send you his work number.
Jeff
As I reread this thread I realized I hadn't posted any of my experiences with my most recent development process.
Fred, the stock Z3/318 header is pretty darn good. We have been working with a fabricator/dyno shop and have done a protoype header. We covered every base....even did some math!!! Results...initially a loss of about 10hp!!!
Amazing!! Fact of the matter is the BMW engineers did a pretty darn good job on these little motors.
We've since done some changing and reconfiguring. Results....no hp gains yet. We have brought the hp back to where it was with the stock header but cannot find anymore. The motor seems to like back pressure. It doesn't respond at all to breathing better. Unfortunately the header effort has been a confirmation of suspicion mission and not a hp gainer. It's at the coater as we speak....we'll see. We're hoping that the adaptive memory of the ECU will show some gains once the car has some hard runs on it.
We'll be dynoing it again after NHIS in April. I'll keep you posted.
R
Rob, Thanks keep us posted.... I kinda suspected the OEM stuff was good off the shelf but wonder if the Z3 or e30 header was any better than the e36 part. Also looking for advice on chip burning. Anybody with and experience with the Supersprint header ?
Fred, The supersprint is IIRC $1200. Go custom not much more money and there "may be" some tq gains (not sure how much if any) plus the supersprint is not coated. The ECU thing....ahhh...it's a flash ECU. What that means is the software is injected not chipped. What we need is either MOTEC or a code cracker to rewrite the software based on dyno mapping. If you disable the EWS (BMW antitheft) then you could have a couple of ECU's available for different ambient conditions. The EWS prevents the car from starting if the ECU and the key do not match. I have spare ECU's but I can't use them at this time. I've heard the EWS is easy to disable and I've also heard it is hard, so I haven't ventured there yet.
Some one had suggested converting it to OBD 1 , which I don't know if it is IT legal or not, but it would make some things easier I suspect. BMW does some interesting things with the electrical sytem so I don't know what the expectations/limitations of the swap would be. (for instance the on board computer for gas milage, trip distance, etc. is a hub for the wheel speed TCS so you can't just rip it out without going into limp mode). We spent half of last season in limp mode without knowing why. How fun is shifting at 5200 rpm?
The car has nice even hp and tq curves which is real nice. I think it may be still a little heavy given its increase potential. The car has one-off written all over it. If you like an oddball you'll LOVE this car.
R
Also, the e36 318 is the same car as the Z3 . The 318ti is identical just different body panels. If it mattters.
As a test, how about the OEM header, extrude honed and then an ID and OD coating?
That would an interesting comparision during a dyno day.
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As a test, how about the OEM header, extrude honed and then an ID and OD coating?
That would an interesting comparision during a dyno day.
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Explain the extrude honing process and if possible where to get it done, please. I'm up for the test Andy. I'll provide the header and dyno time. You provide the extrude honing and coating. :P
Also, what are advantages to internal coating?
R
extrude honeing they blow a an abrasive material through the part to smooth out the surface. The internal and external coatings help with scavaging and keeping heat out of the engine compartment.
It's basically 'abrasive flow machining'.Quote:
Explain the extrude honing process and if possible where to get it done, please. I'm up for the test Andy. I'll provide the header and dyno time. You provide the extrude honing and coating. :P
Also, what are advantages to internal coating?
R [/b]
http://www.extrudehone.com/image_loa...ro_passage.jpg
Look here for more info:
http://www.gethoned.com/news/headers.php
The purpose of coating is two-fold as I know it. 1. to reduce underhood temps and 2. to keep the exhaust gasses as hot as possible while they exit through the exhaust. This 'scavenging' is reduced as gasses cool. So an ID and an OD coating provide maximum heat retention of the gasses while providing the lowest underhood temps.
AB
I am leaning towards a 94-95 e36 318i / is, reason being it is less electronic crap ( EWS, trac control etc. ), OBD I and convert from OBD II to I would be illegal with a Z3, the 318ti has a crappy rear suspension setup and slightly less favorable f/r weight. I think the 318is would be ideal, it has decent aero, cheap body panels, the 325's brakes and suspension, and is well supported with aftermarket goodies (chassis wise), and if a map can be created for the FI it would be a little less hassle with OBD I which should still be a early motronic chip. Andy's suggestion of OEM header extrude honed and coated sounds interesting but my guess is more to be gained by simple cat delete and free flow pipe to a simple race muffler to keep a touch of back pressure. I wil post at BF to see if anybody has any experience with supersprint on a M42 / 44 and will keep IT.com posted.
whoa, I wouldnt go as far to say a 318ti is the same w/ different body panels, the ti's are essentially e30s with 5 lug... They have the same rear trailing arm components which are nothing like those of the e36 models... yea you OBD deuce guys are screwed but as far as OBDI cars EAT and conforti are the only chip sources I would use personally, EAT however is a little more, not sure quite how to say it, but 'homebrewed' technology if you will, but he gets his stuff right on the money... And will burn custom chips
Im not so sure that the extrude honing process would be beneficial on a tubular header piece?
Or are there cast units on the e36 318 models? IIRC my 94 318is has a tubular style header though but havent really paid much attention as its just a street car
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We covered every base....even did some math!!! Results...initially a loss of about 10hp!!!
...
Unfortunately the header effort has been a confirmation of suspicion mission and not a hp gainer. It's at the coater as we speak....we'll see.
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I guess I can save some money on custom exhaust work, then :D
As for ECU programming, Dinan does have some downloadable software for the M44, but you have to got to a Dinan authorized shop to get it installed. I'm thinking about it, but mostly to give me a few hundred extra RPM before the rev limiter kicks in. With the gears I've got (3.64:1), I think that will help me avoid a couple of shifts (or at least move them to more convenient places). Besides, I think showing up to my local BMW dealer (and Dinan authorized shop) with a race car could be fun!
-noam (finally, it's almost getting warm enough to get into the garage and actually work on the car)
No I ruled out the 318ti for same reasons, it has a e36 front suspension but a rear e30 style and very short overhang in the rear.Quote:
whoa, I wouldnt go as far to say a 318ti is the same w/ different body panels, the ti's are essentially e30s with 5 lug... They have the same rear trailing arm components which are nothing like those of the e36 models... [/b]
The e36 318is uses the same tubular header as the Z3 ( or very similar in appearance )
Any website for EAT ??
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No I ruled out the 318ti for same reasons, it has a e36 front suspension but a rear e30 style and very short overhang in the rear.
The e36 318is uses the same tubular header as the Z3 ( or very similar in appearance )
Any website for EAT ??
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That's exactly what I meant. The Z3 has an e30 rear suspension set-up. Which is much less desirable than the e36 trailing arm set-up.
Fred, there is currently a 318 ti race car for sale on ebay for 11,500. It has a nice cage. Maybe it'll get you motivated!
I've said if I ball up the Z3 I'll be looking for a 95 (OBD 1) 318 is.
R
That's right, not all e-36's used multi-link on the rear, the 318ti and Z3 both use trailing arms. Another advantage for the 318i is the longer wheel base, 105 inches if I recall correctly. Around here the tracks are high speed with no really slow speed corners.Quote:
No I ruled out the 318ti for same reasons, it has a e36 front suspension but a rear e30 style and very short overhang in the rear.
The e36 318is uses the same tubular header as the Z3 ( or very similar in appearance )
Any website for EAT ??
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Neither the M42 nor the M44 have a vanos system, the M44 does have a multi-length intake manifold that you can't take apart and port match in the middle. Best thing you can do is add a motec type system and remove the traction control butterfly between the MAF and the throttle body. Has anyone figured out a way to zero lash the lifters? or given the red line they probably already have a piddle valve. Also I doubt there's a stock piston larger than 0.01 over, most that I've seen are the Max-sil coated one that I doubt are legel. Swirl pollish the valve with new valve springs. I'd install a baffel kit in the oil pan and run an accusump too. Still I doubt any major gain in hp or torque will be found. You can get lots of really good suspension components. Come to think of it Korman built an M-44 for somone in Latin America. Also you'd want toget the proper rear ratio depending on you max trap speed, I'd go with something as high as 3.96 or 4.12, otherwise you'll probably never use 5th gear.
James
James, I was thinking of a factory 3:91 limited slip to start with and thinking the low tq # and relative wide tire allowed would limit wheelspin. I also think accusump might be needed but would start with a baffle, I guess that will need to be a home brew pan as I have not seen any.
Question for Andy B. what are the chances we would get the 96-97 cars on the same line, specs are almost identical but the 96-97 318's use the M44 1.9 ???? Also I remember the sport pkg cars having 16" wheels and being almost more common than the 15" wheel cars, would the CRB consider 16" wheels for the e36 318i / is cars?? I also notice the 95 cars not listed but they should be listed with the 92-94 cars, same line.
We had a 4.10, now in to a 4.27, that is at BH farms however, which is relatively short...
5th gear on the e36 trans I believe is 1:1... however in our e30 its overdrive... the e36 box has tighter gears IIRC
http://www3.sympatico.ca/mdsylva/products.htm
like I said kind of a do-it-yourselfer, but in the e30 community he is highly praised and his stuff has been checked by end-users proving his advertised results...
Hes definatly slow on the email respones almost to the point where you would think the whole thing is a sham... but I think he does this as a side job...
The e36 and e30 front suspensions are so similar that many people swap in the e36 front struts and CA's to go to 5 lug... so thats pretty much standard between the two cars... but I believe the e36 CA's in the e30 location create a caster heavy car... many people run different CAB's to combat that...
Back to my previous question, can the extrude hone process improve a tubular style header? I know the basic process but never got real knowledgable on the issue... I wouldn't think that a improvement could be made in comparison to like a cast part that is extremmely porous..
also gt-technic sells a dry sump but cant remember if thats IT legal either...
http://www.gttechnic.com/catalog.html
Sno
I think extrude hone on a tube header will be less benefit than a cast unit, but coating would be a big help. I am researching OEM headers now to determine if any difference in e30 or e36 or Z3...
The ETK shows that up to 96 all cars used one style of header, then after they used another style, might have to something with OBDII conversion...
The only difference I can see via the ETK is that the check ports on the old style are on each primary right off the head, the 96 and newer model has 1 or 2 check ports by the collector area...
I have got my junkyard guy looking for several different headers ( e30, Z3, late e36 ) to compare.
Fred,
If you are looking to purchase a Z3 header I have two of them in great shape (one 12K mi the other 30K mi). Just so you know.
R
Rob,
turns out the e30 / e36 / z3 headers are all about the same, different when OBD II kicks in but does not appear there is any design differences, just part#'s. On a funny note eBay has a header for m42 / m44 cars for $199.00 does not say but I bet atleast 20 hp to be had with one of those babies :rolleyes:
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Rob,
turns out the e30 / e36 / z3 headers are all about the same, different when OBD II kicks in but does not appear there is any design differences, just part#'s. On a funny note eBay has a header for m42 / m44 cars for $199.00 does not say but I bet atleast 20 hp to be had with one of those babies :rolleyes:
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Nice try Fred it's more like 50hp....... :P
R
Whats even more funny is that I would be inclined to buy one ( eBay header ) at $199 just for kicks on a dyno day !!!
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Whats even more funny is that I would be inclined to buy one ( eBay header ) at $199 just for kicks on a dyno day !!!
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I've thought of that but I need the 200 for so many other things right now. But it is interesting.
R
I could find this info, but it is easier to post and ask. Someone mentioned 2600 lbs. Did the weight change from the 2840 the GCR shows? If so, hmmmm.......
Backformore, it sure did change with the "great IT realignment of 06" I think you can find the actual change in Fastrack Feb addendum at: http://www.scca.org/_FileLibrary/File/06-2...ck-addendum.pdf
Problem is with anything other than the magical 180 lbs driver I am not sure you can get all the way down to that but I may be wrong.....
Well, I'm a magical 200 lb driver, so maybe I'd be able to come close. As much as anything, at 2840 lbs, the car was going to be hell on tires, brakes, etc.
Like I said, hmmm....
Backformore, I said Hmm.. too! I think this would be a good car with class leading brakes and as good of a chassis as any but still have some concerns in the engine department. I still think, when developed, the Miata 1.8 is going to be the car to have, at 220 less pounds and only 10 less hp stock ( but tons of development out there via the spec guys )... The e36 318 could be ( rules wise ) a few lbs less but I dont think you can actually get one down that far.... ANY BODY BUILDING A e36 318 KEEP US POSTED !
I like the possibility of the 318 as a daily driver to be converted to a track car/license keeper/ and eventually maybe full blown ITA competitor. I could put a cage and safety equipment in one and still be able to fit in it comfortably to drive to work. It would be a reasonable replacement for my 93 Accord which I love, but has no real competiton potential.
If I was building an A-kicking A car, it might not be what I'd choose. It does seem to have potential. I agree that looking at base, stock numbers, the engine seems to be where the question mark is. It would be interesting to know how much power the BMW experts think could be extracted from that power plant.
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I like the possibility of the 318 as a daily driver to be converted to a track car/license keeper/ and eventually maybe full blown ITA competitor. I could put a cage and safety equipment in one and still be able to fit in it comfortably to drive to work. It would be a reasonable replacement for my 93 Accord which I love, but has no real competiton potential.
If I was building an A-kicking A car, it might not be what I'd choose. It does seem to have potential. I agree that looking at base, stock numbers, the engine seems to be where the question mark is. It would be interesting to know how much power the BMW experts think could be extracted from that power plant.
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It would be really great to find a BMW "expert" who knows much about the m44 or m42 for that matter. It is a motor everyone seems to glance over. The development of the motor for us has switched from trying toextract gobs of power to documenting that the motor doesn't have the potential gains thought it did in IT trim. It isn't fun spending $$$ and not finding gains.
I agree with Fred about the 1.8 Miata. I think it will be THE car to have and as it is classed relative to the e36/37 m44. For some reason the "classing Gods" have shined down favorably on the Zoom-Zoom!!
Did anybody really expect anything less??? It is, afterall, a Mazda !Quote:
For some reason the "classing Gods" have shined down favorably on the Zoom-Zoom!!
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